Why shouldn't tanks be able to do damage?


#27

AND Zarya

It just got me thinking… why?

Many people don’t want to play tank because they feel like they depend on the rest of their team too much, they can’t make plays etc so they avoid them.

So when we have some tanks which can feel empowering to play the damage is reduced and no doubt fewer people will play them?

I understand that sometimes one or another character may become too OP, but to me it just seems to ensure a status quo of ensuring people just stick with DPS.

Regardless of that thought process, I just want to understand why doing damage can’t be a thing tanks do?


#28

That’s only if he’s in range though. Not exactly that difficult to get into Sigma’s effective range.


#29

Tanks are powerful because there’s a give-and-take relationship between the power and the way it scales with the utility they provide, and the difficulty by which that utility is provided. Roadhog, for example, has a Hook -> Shot -> Melee combo that has the potential to kill squishy targets… but the hook has a 8 second cooldown, and the combo is significantly less potent on targets with smaller frames, and when used against heroes with larger frames it’s less likely to one-shot kill simply because they tend to have more health (Tanks, Doomfist, Mei, Brigitte). His hook can be used to displace enemies or even doom enemies when pulled into his own team, but again, it can only be used once every 8 seconds. He’s powerful, a “Fat DPS” like some may say, but it comes at a cost: He’s an incredibly easy target to hit, resulting in being easier to kill, and easier to build ultimate charge off of. The power comes at the cost of potentially benefiting the enemy team.

Another example is Reinhardt: He does decent enough damage and can kill squishies in three hits (Even with Firestrike included), but he is not able to utilize his shield while doing so. You have to be in melee range, which comes with significant risk, and you have to leave yourself, and your team, without the barrier. You diminish one utility in exchange for another.

They rely on efficiently and consistently regulating these trades in utility to be effective. How do you make space as a tank like Roadhog, D.Va or Zarya if the enemy has no reason to fear you? This “Command presence” is simply another utility that tanks leverage to their benefit.

In contrast, DPS’s sole function is to provide damage. They have to play intelligently (just like a tank must in order to excel in their own respective roles) but they don’t necessarily need to make any such trades. Their primary focus is on dealing damage. At the moment you might make a case for Zarya being overpowered, and I might agree, but even then it’s easy to argue that building up that damage output relies on the combined efforts of herself skillfully placing barriers, and the enemy’s failing to avoid firing upon them.


#30

Nice post Synaptic.

Maybe that was Sigma’s issue, his damage didn’t come with a sufficient ‘cost’.

So, if tanks have a ‘cost’ to do damage, what is wrong with them being able to do damage?

Can we have more tanks that have a ‘cost’ to do damage?

Does Roadhog have too little ‘cost’ or too much ‘cost’?


#31

Thanks. I’m actually in favor of tanks being able to do damage, that was my point. I didn’t have any one particular person to respond to in such a broad sense the way that I did, so I made a general post that others may reply to if they had something to add, or a counterpoint to make. I didn’t want to litter the forum with repeat threads by making my own thread on the topic.

I think Roadhog’s cost is neither too high or too low at the moment. He doesn’t necessarily need to sacrifice much to be able to do his job as a tank, but he also can’t function as a tank without benefiting the other team. You also have to take into consideration how he can actually miss his hook shot relatively easily, and then his OHK combo goes out the window for a little while, and he’s just a big walking ult battery.

On another note, I hadn’t looked at the PTR and haven’t seen anything. What happened to Sigma? Did they nerf his damage?


#32

In most games, Tanks and Supports have capabilities that the rest of the roster do not have/do not have to the same degree at the cost of the capability in another area.

Generally, the other area is damage but, occasionally it’s something else such as movement.

If the Tanks and Supports don’t have to pay a significant cost you can easily end up in the position where choosing primarily or exclusively Tanks/Supports can be better than picking DPS.

If you look at my hero selection history you’ll see an example of this:

When I first started playing Overwatch, I played both DPS and Supports nowadays, I play supports most of the time and I play Overwatch less. The reality is, on a support I can get far more done than on a DPS and the gameplay of supports isn’t good enough to keep my full interest (Some of that is due to support changes made by the dev team).

The thing is the design behind DPS heroes tends to be more enjoyable for many people that the design behind tanks and supports. Displacing the DPS line up effectively limits the size of the games appeal.

2-2-2 may mandate that DPS are in each match but, that doesn’t mean they get much of anything done while in the match. This is especially true for players with average or bad aim.

The situation is made worse in part due to the DPS heroes predominantly being glass cannons and the maps generally being about control of relatively small areas. If the tanks can actually get into range to engage the DPS it isn’t pretty for the DPS even when the tanks have lowish damage and as the relevant areas on the maps are quite small the DPS is frequently in the tanks range.

It’s hard to say.

Roadhog is massively annoying to fight against which can create bias against him (I’m personally biased against the character). At the same point, he’s spent most of the game’s history costing his team matches by feeding the enemy team ults which slaughter his team. Last I knew he was having average to above average success but, a tank that combines with him well is currently very dominant so it’s hard to say how much of that is him with the public stats.


#33

A nice post Chess, but it still doesn’t address my initial query and the topic of the thread.

If anything it just seems to suggest that it doesn’t have to be damage and can be mobility instead.

Don’t Zarya and Sigma fall into this category for example? Dva, Wreckingball and Winston are highly mobile (like much of the DPS class) but they don’t do as much damage typically.

Is it as simple as allow tanks to do damage so long as they aren’t highly mobile? (ie so they can’t chase DPS as easily who regardless almost inevitably have an evade ability?)

I realize this statement may seem deceptively simple, but can’t it pretty much just come down to that? I’m not saying all less mobile tanks should do more damage, then can have other utility like Orisa?


#34

GOATS was dead on ladder for quite a while before role queue. The metagame revolved heavily around bunker and triple DPS. If anything it was some DPS overshadowing other DPS that caused more issues.


#35

GOATS PTSD

but honestly it’s really dumb they nerfed both Sigma and Zarya, yet Zen, being the support that he is, can still dish out insane amounts of damage


#36

They can do damage, they just should be worse at it than dps.


#37

But you aren’t saying why?

Why can’t they do the same as DPS if they have a ‘cost’ or drawback associated with it?


#38

Dealing damage is in part what makes a tank in this game.

If they weren’t threatening you would just ignore them.

If you think it’s just about barriers and space you clearly have no understanding of how tanks operate.

That’s why you stay away from tanks.

That’s why they create space.


#39

Also:

Tank or DPS?

What would be wrong with a tank like Sebastian Shaw from First Class for example?


#40

*at close range.

Tank damage is high but incredibly limited (usually by range). This is to provide some threat so enemies don’t just rush/farm them. Mobility is also something tanks are missing out on.

Damage heroes have the damage of tanks, but have the mobility and range to apply it. Strength out of place etcetcetc


#41

No, members of the category would not just have stock movement they would have worse than stock movement.

For many heros that self damage such as Zarya you can use it for movement.


#42

So… OP is suggesting that tanks shouldn’t have weapons? :thinking:

OP prefers to fight something large & easy that does not fight back?? :thinking::thinking:


#43

Because this game is modelled after MMORPGs, not action PVP. :joy:
Tank/DPS/Healer is an MMORPG meme they ripped right out of WoW when it came to designing stuff in OW.
That’s why it’s bad, but Blizzard doesn’t realize this or care.


#44

Because they want us to queue as DPS instead.


#45

Why? Is a small rocket jump (as this is essentially what this is) really that game breaking?

Simplying suggestion that any slight deviation from the norm means they can’t do more damage is a bit disingenuous don’t you think?

It isn’t all so linear.

It should be all relative, a minor right click jump isn’t enough in itself to suggest that damage takes a hit, it could instead equate to 50 less hp, a larger hitbox, longer cooldown or any number of things?

Also this:


#46

It’s fine that they do damage. What’s not fine is lel-we-just-entered-a-1v1-skirmish-and-i-win-because-i’m-a-tank. Maybe the answer is to buff the HP of all squishies just a bit.