Why should Discord be nerfed for tanks?

General Discussion
61

It was so not funny, you couldn’t find a way to explain how they were false comprisons.

Yes, and in my comparisons, I explained the upsides of each ability I listed within one sentence each, and using only as many words as I needed. If you notice, the way I described those abilities are perfectly correct. The problem is that they’re reductive, and it seems like the abilities only have upsides.

Heck, if there’s a problem with my comparisons, its because they aren’t as extreme as “Zenyatta basically took 300 health from you with a button press”.

No, I get the logic, but I object to how its presented. I think you give people the wrong idea by saying something as extreme as “He took 100 health from you with an ability that can’t go on cooldown, and he can spam it however he likes”. I think that’s a disingenuous way to frame it.

By saying “He essentially took a chunk of health away from you without even needing to damage you”, why not argue for the removal of the entire ability at that point? As I said, framing it like this is reductive, it seems alarmist, and generally it seems sneaky.

And when Ana sleeps targets, they usually instantly die. Sometimes, Ana doesn’t even need help; she can combo you on her own with nade or more damage. So why do you object to me saying “Sleep dart is essentially a one shot” or similar language?

I think you understand why you object to that language.

I responded to what I wanted to respond to. What if I didn’t have an issue with the rest of your comment? What if I thought your logic was fine besides what I mentioned? Did I need to respond to everything?

I disagreed with you, so I’m unreasonable. Okay. I see. And I don’t want you to feel that I was shouting at you, but I’d hope you take another look at my comment and realize that the worst thing I said about you was that your argument seemed sneaky.

62

If anyone thinks discord is OK when playing tank, then that person don’t play tank at all.

Zen is a dps character and you should rank up based on dmg and transcendence usage, not just by using an ability and chill on the back.

63

This is the “no true scottsman” logical fallacy. Which, I’m not one to jump in and say “oooh, that’s a logical fallacy, and that means you’re entirely wrong!”, but I have to point out how unfair this statement is. My most played hero is a tank, and he beats out my second most played hero by a wide margin.

I don’t have an issue with discord, so I guess that means I don’t play tank at all? Which, I suppose your next thing will be “uhh, well you don’t play tank at this rank, during this phase of the moon, at exactly 5:45 AM, so that means you don’t know what you’re talking about”.

Which is called “moving the goal posts”.

64

Compare all you can do while discorded with all you can do without discord.

I think there is tons of more stuff to do while you are not taking 20-25% more dmg for free. Because the most you do while discorded is hide behind a wall or shield up.

You just get melted faster than a tracer.

65

The ability that’s made to hinder me is hindering me. Clearly, that means the ability is bad.

You can use other defensive abilities that the tanks have. Which, you know, is what you’re supposed to do. However, if you can’t, what’s wrong with coordinating with your team and getting help to stop the Zen hindering you?

I’ll tell you what’s wrong: me expecting teamwork out of the Overwatch community.

66

I get mixed messages from this community, with every other character you’re apparently an idiot for shooting the tank but for zen you’re apparently an idiot for putting discord on anyone but the tank

2 Likes
67

It is maybe a nerf to Zen when facing against a hero who can cleanese or get out of LOS quickly. For slower tanks like Rein, Orisa and Hog who suffer Discord Orb the most, what does a 1 second CD do for them? This is just a random nerf to Zen without really helping those tanks. This is why I don’t think a CD nerf is helpful.

1 second is also kinda laughable. It would be comparable to Dva’s DM.

68

Well, you could get baited by a tank who’s walking in the open, then when you put Discord on them, he could LOS you, and a flanker could charge you. From then, you’re put in a scenario where the enemy is forcing moves out of you.

You’re going to discord the flanker, but now the tank’s pushing up again. What’s worse, that flanker could be Genji who’s especially equipped to waste your time AND kill you to get a free reset. So, you take Discord off of Genji and put it on the tank, but that Genji’s still a problem. You’re fighting Genji with no discord? And if you take your mind off of either, you could lose discord, so now you’re fighting BOTH with no discord.

You could say “the tank is still the more valuable target”, and that’s probably true, but it still opens up a weakness for Zen’s enemies to exploit. And of course, if 1 second isn’t too much of a downside, we could increase it.

I think a 4 second cooldown would need compensation buffs, though.

Edit: Oh, and the tank could be someone like Doomfist or Ball who can LOS you, and jump on you within the span on one second. You can discord them while getting killed, but that still dramatically cuts down your effectiveness.

Edit 2: ALSO

Don’t forget that some heroes will just suffer more regardless. If we’re nerfing Discord to give each and every tank equal benefit, the Discord’s getting giga nerfed, and the indirect buff to the entire tank role would be astronomical.

69

I’m honestly surprised it survived the change to 1 tank, and removal of double shield. Whatever, everyone will adjust to changes. I care more about mcree’s nade right now than discord.

70

This is assuming the tank is excellent at breaking LoS, but Rein, Orisa and Hog generally either must stay in the open (to contest key objective or get to the highground) for a while and is slow at breaking LoS. It is pretty likely they wouldn’t be able to exploit this “weakness” compared to mobile / cleansing heroes like Tracer or Zarya.

And these tanks are generally not the tanks that suffer the most from Discord Orb, why make a nerf that helps them more than Rein Orisa Hog?

Your nerf helps tanks who can easily break Discord Orb the most, and who can’t the least. A damage amp nerf would help those that suffer Discord Orb the most, and who don’t the least (and those who don’t suffer generally has lower HP so that Discord Orb is less efficient on them anyways).

71

Not even close. None of those are perfectly correct whatsoever
-D.va’s DM doesn’t make you immune to damage, several forms of damage get in just fine (Beams + melees + ambients) and she can be damaged in a large area of her hitbox even while active.
-Sleep dart doesn’t “literally” kill you because the most obvious function of death is a recall timer which sleep dart itself doesn’t initiate. Saying a stun literally kills you is even more disingenuous.
-Reinhardt basically has two health bars is also patently wrong because when Rein’s regular HP bar dies, he dies, meaning it doesn’t function as a second one under any real circumstances.

Saying Zen’s discord orb cuts your HP pool is literally what is happening there. It is the simplest way to comprehend the effect: When discord is on you, you have less HP to work with. There is nothing incorrect about that statement. It is in no way comparable to yours, which are patently incorrect.

If you don’t understand the difference between “You literally have less HP to work with while Zen is discording you” and “You literally are dead when you’re asleep,” then I don’t know how to explain it any more. The former is a factually true statement while the latter is a factually false one.

I generally view someone using a large amount of capslock as shouting a response. I generally view someone using fake quote marks to say things totally unlike what the other person actually said as a mark of deteriorated discussion rather than reasonable one. A reasonable discussion doesn’t involve the extreme hyperbole your post initiated, nor does it involve scarecrowing me to death with quotes I never even remotely stated.

You began your argument with ad hominem attacks calling me an alarmist and “pro gamer” (which is laughably off-base, if you’d care to look at my public profile you’ll see I’m nothing of the sort). You then moved into false comparisons, and assigned me malice by saying my argument was “explicitly created to deceive people.” You end your post by literally comparing me to someone screaming in all caps, and then said my whole argument was an excuse to justify “stiffly nerfing” it–something I actually was fairly explicit on NOT recommending.

You could’ve been agreeing with me, and I’d have the exact same response–this is not a reasonable way to argue.

I was pointing out that your hyperbole was assigning me things I very specifically distanced myself from in my post. Here’s a great example of that:

72

The issue is not about teamwork or not.

The issue is that discord is an ability that puts you on afk mode without a cooldown.

And I play zen, I’m a support player mostly, but that ability is not fun for the game. If your teammates have half a brain and help you with attackers, plus you are in a OK position, you just wont die as zen, therefore you can discord the tank 24/7.

73

The same way snipers do to squishies?
Or flankers do to supports?

We only care about tanks though.
Isn’t that right?

74

Dispite the name my main role has always been support. I have played many support in many teams with zen being my main. Since ow2 things only got easier for the decision making on him. No more need to choose where to put discord on to get the most value because the most value is almost always just the tank. I have almost completely dropped him which has made me sad but if they nerf his discord on tanks (with proper compensation) I am excited for the chance to enjoy him again.

75

Orisa is going to be net buffed as of season 6 vs. season 1 and Hog is harder to kill now vs. season 1, meaning we will need discord more now than ever.

Yet it’s getting nerfed.

76

so ur saying that all I need to do is play Zen, discord a tank and automatically my team will carry me to T500?

77

They just nerfed Widow not too long ago.

Most flankers have saw nerfs overall and support have been receive a lot of buff to fight back as well. Support is obviously being cared for a lot, arguable a bit too much currently.

78

You said yourself that it didn’t really work, people didn’t want to play tank. (Open queue before that didn’t really work either, people didn’t want to play tank or support.)
People still don’t seem to want to play tank lol, so perhaps it was a failed attempt, but I don’t mind that they tried this.

Anyway, as for discord, I also think it can be nerfed in other ways than some inconsistent exception on tanks.

79

Season 1 Orisa is pretty trash, so her being better is not a high bar. Hog is also utterly trash right now, so do you really need Discord Orb to be this strong to beat him?

Exception on tanks already exists with Sleep Dart, so I don’t see the problem.

80

i feel like reducing JQ’s bleed heal to 1.75x, along with nerfing ramattra due to zen being mandatory against those 2 or else they just wont die and will dominate the match. id rather nerf the actual problem then add a counter to it. so discord has been needing a nerf since season 1. however, we need to tone down JunkerQueen and Ramattra if we are nerfing discord.