Why Noone Talking About Mercy?

[NerfHEDSHOTs-3422]

@Minty-11551

please offer some evidence you don’t expect me to take your word for it right?

Lol alright. You can think that way. Most know Overbuff is not reliable.

@Minty-11551

idk you tell me you watch them

All the things that you don’t. I consume too much OW content and have studied on too many things to just suddenly be a mentor to prove a point. So its ip to you to make it a point to study and understand. That first comes with the willingness to become a study before you become a teacher.

I cannot help you here. But I do suggest you take a deeper look.

@Minty-11551

these threads show that there are people who really hate mercy

So we’re just dismissing players’ experienced again? Like a broken record. You have your proof and denied one third of the forums about Mercy hate just summed up to bad players and unjustified hero hate? Bro… what is the logic here?

@Minty-11551

and do not ignore commonly expressed concerns of mercy players either

I want you players buffed but your kits need some changes. Bronto.

@Minty-11551

you have to wait for data to build up

Blizz doedn’t have a dedicated data management team. They go off basic game stats recorded through their server client. How do you not know Blizz just ignores a lot of the data provided?

@Minty-11551

well make it happen if you became a dev for team 4 but logic dictates that they’re better off balancing the game around her as opposed to the other way around

Yeah no one needs to be a dev to make a change or express themselves. Also no one needs a negative person censoring their experiences and expression or their opinions. You’re not Blizz PR.

[Trickster-21129]

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

@Minty-11551

please offer some evidence you don’t expect me to take your word for it right?

Lol alright. You can think that way. Most know Overbuff is not reliable.

Minty, you will lose this battle…

They are right, Overbuff is not reliable source until you show that it is.

We do know that Overbuff uses players open profiles to gather data and discards closed ones. Until you can show that the sample size of people that keep their profiles open is representative using it to draw any kind of conclusion is unreasonable. And, to be honest, I don’t know how you would show that it is the case.

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

All the things that you don’t. I consume too much OW content and have studied on too many things to just suddenly be a mentor to prove a point. So its ip to you to make it a point to study and understand

And now you shift burden of proof.

Please oh please go and learn about epistemology! Especially if you use same justifications in your day to day life. This approach can be harmful to you because you can be easily fooled and con artist can get advantage of you!

[Minty-11551]

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

Lol alright. You can think that way. Most know Overbuff is not reliable.

well since you couldn’t come up w/ a reason as to why it’s unreliable i’ll continue to use it as reliable source of information throughout our discussion

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

All the things that you don’t. I consume too much OW content and have studied on too many things to just suddenly be a mentor to prove a point. So its ip to you to make it a point to study and understand. That first comes with the willingness to become a study before you become a teacher.

I cannot help you here. But I do suggest you take a deeper look.

so you have no idea either fantastic

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

So we’re just dismissing players’ experienced again?

no you’re doing that i’m considering everyone’s experience not just the forum visitors not just the people who hate mercy not just the people who love mercy
i see it from the community’s perspective

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

You have your proof and denied one third of the forums about Mercy hate just summed up to bad players and unjustified hero hate?

no i don’t necessarily think they’re bad players or the hatred (or the love) is unjustified
i just don’t think mercy getting a rework or a change is good for the community this is the lesser evil
mercy players will be upset w/ the changes you will be upset w/ the changes and the forums will blow up
you might get upset enough to quit or that could happen to mercy players
and people like you and mercy players do make up a big portion of the community
i just don’t see how blizzard would want to beat the hornet’s nest w/ a bat just bc “it’d be a better core design” when the character is just doing fine and she’s not pissing too many people off

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

I want you players buffed but your kits need some changes. Bronto.

and that’s just your opinion
nothing in mercy’s kit is overwhelmingly oppressive or useless
even if the design is meh she works and she’s performing well enough
it doesn’t make sense to upset everyone

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

How do you not know Blizz just ignores a lot of the data provided?

i don’t think that’s true… bc from a data analyst’s pov it makes no sense to ignore data and i highly doubt you have any evidence that they do ignore data either

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

Yeah no one needs to be a dev to make a change or express themselves.

express yourself! i hope it gets somewhere but don’t blame me if it doesn’t

[Minty-11551]

@Trickster-21129

Minty, you will lose this battle…

the only thing i’m losing is time honestly he’s running in circles and making himself progressively angrier

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

Lol alright. You can think that way. Most know Overbuff is not reliable.

well since you couldn’t come up w/ a reason as to why it’s unreliable i’ll continue to use it as reliable source of information throughout our discussion

I did tho:

@Trickster-21129

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

@Minty-11551

please offer some evidence you don’t expect me to take your word for it right?

Lol alright. You can think that way. Most know Overbuff is not reliable.

Minty, you will lose this battle…

They are right, Overbuff is not reliable source until you show that it is.

We do know that Overbuff uses players open profiles to gather data and discards closed ones. Until you can show that the sample size of people that keep their profiles open is representative using it to draw any kind of conclusion is unreasonable. And, to be honest, I don’t know how you would show that it is the case.

(-;

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

the only thing i’m losing is time honestly he’s running in circles and making himself progressively angrier

Yeah, they tend to do that.

But you are wrong on that one point.

[Minty-11551]

@Trickster-21129

We do know that Overbuff uses players open profiles to gather data and discards closed ones. Until you can show that the sample size of people that keep their profiles open is representative using it to draw any kind of conclusion is unreasonable. And, to be honest, I don’t know how you would show that it is the case.

i think the amount of data is good enough and is definitely more reliable than one person’s rage fueled rant

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

i think the amount of data is good enough

What you think is not evidence… It is just an opinion.

@Minty-11551

is definitely more reliable than one person’s rage fueled rant

Sure…

But if we have a terrible source of information and bad source of information we shouldn’t take either of them seriously but rather look for a source that is actually good.

[Minty-11551]

@Trickster-21129

What you think is not evidence… It is just an opinion.

it’s a set of data points and you might think that just because it’s smaller than the actual amount of data points out there it’s unreliable
but in reality we have to deal w/ the dataset that we’re given… in data science we have this thing called “leave one out cross validation” which helps when the sample size is very small so it’s not impossible to conclude a relatively reliable point from a small data pool

also i’d like to add that it’s reliable bc the data points that are missing are likely to be random like we have no reason or evidence to think that all pharah players make their profiles private so the data points that do exist are less likely to be skewed

[Megadodo-11847]

@anon590888

Mercy has always been busted but Blizzard won’t do anything about it. Can’t upset those female players who have 12 thousand hours on Mercy and no time on anyone else.

Not at all

First, Mercy hasnt been “busted” for many years, going back to the early days of OW1

Second, the devs are not afraid to nerf Mercy, as evidenced by the fact that she received three large nerfs in a row recently

So…no and no

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

it’s a set of data points and you might think that just because it’s smaller than the actual amount of data points out there it’s unreliable

No, that’s not what I said…

I asked how you vetted the data to know that it is reliable…

For example, if I look at stats of a certain hero in bronze (lets say Widowmaker) and see that she has 70% WR does that mean that she is too strong in Bronze? Or maybe that we had a spike of smurfs down there that play her and dominate every match with her, since those are the only ones with open profile and actual bronze Widowmaker players have their profiles closed?

You see you look at data, that you know that is just a sample from actual community and you didn’t stop to vet it. Why? If I get 1000 players from SC2 and 800 of them will say “Protoss is too weak” in your opinion that shows that 80% of SC2 community think that Protoss is too weak. But in reality I just got 900 salty protoss players 50 Terran players and 50 Zerg players as my hypothetical sample.

If you are using data you have to show that it is reliable and present all the spectrum fairly. Right now your argument for that is “I think it is”. Sorry but that won’t fly, since you can justify anything with that argument.

“I think you are just chatbot made with chat GPT”. Now disprove it. See how easy it is? You try to shift burden of proof when it is on you since you are saying that dataset you are using is reliable. Which needs to be shown!

@Minty-11551

but in reality we have to deal w/ the dataset that we’re given… in data science we have this thing called “leave one out cross validation” which helps when the sample size is very small so it’s not impossible to conclude a relatively reliable point from a small data pool

First of all: my concern is not with the data sample being small, since I don’t know how big or small it actually is. I don’t know how many players have their profiles closed across all ranks and how the distribution works. But neither do you!

Second of all: If you done that on this data set you could show this, but I have a hunch that you didn’t!

@Minty-11551

also i’d like to add that it’s reliable bc the data points that are missing are likely to be random like we have no reason or evidence to think that all pharah players make their profiles private

But we have reason to think that it is more likely for a good pharah to open their profile while bad pharah to keep their closed! Since bad pharah has incentive to do so to avoid abuse, and good pharah has incentive to do so to refer people there when someone whines about their pick. You haven’t rule out that possibility. And I don’t know how you could.

Bottom line is, the full picture have only Blizzard and their developers. We, most likely, won’t ever see that data. So before you use data from Overbuff like that you have a long road ahead of you to show that it is actually reliable!

Of course if you care about being reasonable. I kind of assumed it.

[Megadodo-11847]

@Aurora-13974

@Megadodo-11847

there’s no rule against marketing extremely bad ideas to others

This is an opinion being presented as fact. I ask that the personal attacks cease. Thank you.

First, no, it is a fact that there is no such rule. It is not an opinion

Second, no personal attacks were made by me. It is a very bad idea and i explained why

[Aurora-13974]

@Trickster-21129

I agree…

But Resurrection is needed in game as long there are untelegraphed 1HKOs in game, since that is the only thing that can interact with it.

So what I am trying to say here is that we can’t just remove resurrection without looking at those also.

I agree with that too! Luckily the Devs said they are looking at lowering burst damage and healing next season so maybe one shots will get looked at! And with them doing that + wanting to test faster respawn timers, maybe rez is on the chopping block next! We can only hope!

[Minty-11551]

@Trickster-21129

For example, if I look at stats of a certain hero in bronze (lets say Widowmaker) and see that she has 70% WR does that mean that she is too strong in Bronze? Or maybe that we had a spike of smurfs down there that play her and dominate every match with her, since those are the only ones with open profile and actual bronze Widowmaker players have their profiles closed?

yes i do consider that we call them noisy data and outliers
outliers being players that are cheating, playing at a skill rating way above or below their skill level or smurfs
noisy data refers to people who are having a really good day or a really bad one
they do exist but they’re not common if they were common we’d hear about it that bronze is riddled w/ smurfs or cheaters and blizzard would do something about it
and you can’t assume that all actual widow players are making their profiles private w/o having some actual evidence behind it that’s why i mentioned we can assume that private profiles are randomly picked

@Trickster-21129

If you are using data you have to show that it is reliable and present all the spectrum fairly. Right now your argument for that is “I think it is”. Sorry but that won’t fly, since you can justify anything with that argument.

again in reality we have to deal w/ the dataset that we’re given we have no evidence that it’s skewed which you claim it to be
you make up hypothetical situations where it can be skewed but it doesn’t mean that you have any evidence of it

when we deal with let’s say a very rare disease some doctors around the world maybe gather 20 data points about these patients and you have to make conclusions based on that 20 data points yes they can be wrong or skewed but it’s the dataset that you’re given and sample size of overbuff is much larger

@Trickster-21129

First of all: my concern is not with the data sample being small, since I don’t know how big or small it actually is. I don’t know how many players have their profiles closed across all ranks and how the distribution works. But neither do you!

experience has proven that usually we need about 100 times our features count worth of data points to make conclusions and the features we’re looking at are hero choice, win rate, pick rate and rank
can we agree that at least 400 players have their account set as public? i think it’s a fair assumption

@Trickster-21129

But we have reason to think that it is more likely for a good pharah to open their profile while bad pharah to keep their closed!

but you have no way to prove that if you’re going to attack my assumptions i can do the same to you
you’re assuming that they’re doing that for this or that reason which can be wrong, inaccurate or driven by bias

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

and you can’t assume that all actual widow players are making their profiles private w/o having some actual evidence behind it that’s why i mentioned we can assume that private profiles are randomly picked

Profiles are private as a default setting!

And you can’t also assume that data is reliable from the get go. You see I just gave you example that we don’t know if it is true or not. You assume that this is not the case, while I am saying you have no justification to assume that!

@Minty-11551

again in reality we have to deal w/ the dataset that we’re given we have no evidence that it’s skewed which you claim it to be
you make up hypothetical situations where it can be skewed but it doesn’t mean that you have any evidence of it

Again, you try to shift burden of proof to others.

You made the claim that source is reliable you have to show that it is. So far you failed!

@Minty-11551

@Trickster-21129

But we have reason to think that it is more likely for a good pharah to open their profile while bad pharah to keep their closed!

but you have no way to prove that if you’re going to attack my assumptions i can do the same to you
you’re assuming that they’re doing that for this or that reason which can be wrong or inaccurate

Sure… You also don’t have a way to prove that wrong, and yet you operate on the assumption that it is not the case!

Imagine now that we are in a courtroom and Overbuff is on trial. You are prosecutor and you try to show that Overbuff is guilty of being a reliable source.

You didn’t put out any good evidence to support that claim, so we are ruling not guilty! Notice that the ruling is not “innocent” (for Overbuff it would be that it is unreliable source) since that would require evidence the other way (one that you keep asking for, when no one actually took that stance). We just have no way of knowing either way. And if we don’t know if something is true we don’t just assume that it is.

You would know that if you would deal with any actual science like you claim you do!

[Minty-11551]

@Trickster-21129

Profiles are private as a default setting!

that further implies that private profiles are randomly chosen. most of the people that i check have it set to public

@Trickster-21129

And you can’t also assume that data is reliable from the get go.

they’re from games that have been completed. why would i not think that it’s reliable?

@Trickster-21129

You see I just gave you example that we don’t know if it is true or not.

examples aren’t conclusive
the massive sample size gives us a fair estimation of how things are w/ or w/o those few examples

@Trickster-21129

You assume that this is not the case

i assume that the data that is there is enough to cover up the issues emerged from these few examples

@Trickster-21129

I am saying you have no justification to assume that!

i think the sample size is big enough that i can do that

@Trickster-21129

Sure… You also don’t have a way to prove that wrong, and yet you operate on the assumption that it is not the case!

so let’s go w/ your example of bad pharahs hide their profiles and good ones have it set to public
can we also assume that the same thing goes for other heroes and the portion people who are bad at a hero to the portion of people who are good at that hero are roughly the same amount in each rank?
then we can conclude that even if it sounds like it’s skewed and the win rate is a higher than it should be for pharah in reality every bad [hero name] player is doing that and putting pharah’s win rate right back at where it belongs

@Trickster-21129

You didn’t put out any good evidence to support that claim

you don’t put up a good evidence either you just make up hypothetical situations where it can be skewed which is no evidence
and my response is that even if it could be skewed under those specific circumstances there are enough non-problematic data points present to make up for them

[NerfHEDSHOTs-3422]

@Trickster-21129

And now you shift burden of proof.

Please oh please go and learn about epistemology! Especially if you use same justifications in your day to day life. This approach can be harmful to you because you can be easily fooled and con artist can get advantage of you!

Oh come on. There’s no point in teaching or explaning something if someone alresdy has their minds set on ignoring.

@Minty-11551

well since you couldn’t come up w/ a reason as to why it’s unreliable i’ll continue to use it as reliable source of information throughout our discussion

Don’t think I need to. Its common knowledge and Trickster already spoke about it.

@Minty-11551

so you have no idea either fantastic

I can’t just download what I know in my head to yours, man. And again if youxre not willing to be a student then there’s no point in teaching. If you want answer, find them yourself. That’s how the world works.

@Minty-11551

no you’re doing that i’m considering everyone’s experience not just the forum visitors not just the people who hate mercy not just the people who love mercy
i see it from the community’s perspective

One third of forums complaining about Mercy? With more everyday?

And you believe you’re on the community’s side?!

@Minty-11551

no i don’t necessarily think they’re bad players or the hatred (or the love) is unjustified

You just called these forums unjust Mercy hate threads. If you keep backpeddling its just going to hurt more.

@Minty-11551

and that’s just your opinion
nothing in mercy’s kit is overwhelmingly oppressive or useless

Never said oppressive or useless. But they are annoying and have too much influence. They’re also really easy to utilize.

What Mercy needs is further skill expression in her kit a buff to her heals and a higher skill ceiling so that Mercy players can finally show others how good they are at the game rather than fall to the same stigma that all Mercys are easy crutch heros. So you’re view on my opinions are very conveluded when you don’t understand what spot on the spectrum I’m actually in.

@Minty-11551

i don’t think that’s true

Oh man. Like I said you need to pay attention. Honestly watch more videos read more posts. Naturally any player will believe they Blizz does do appropriate dada gathering and feedback collection.

Flats’s recent video on “Season 8 hate” where he replied to comments on one of his tweets mentions how an employee was assigned to look over the commenrs and complie a list of player feedback.

The fact that they specifically assigned one single person to do that when they don’t already have a dedicated team on that task is worrisome. Should be for you too because it means they take a blind eye towards many things outside of Flats’s influence.

@Minty-11551

express yourself! i hope it gets somewhere but don’t blame me if it doesn’t

It doesn’t need to change anything. But moving a conversation forward encourages the changes and sharing of ideas that helps aide in evolving communities and societies.

Every bit of feedback is important, but its Blizzard’s job to sort through it and improve on their game, not the players job. Its the devs and company’s job.

[NerfHEDSHOTs-3422]

Think I’ll stop here.

Two support mains are going at it for some reason.

[Trickster-21129]

@Minty-11551

@Trickster-21129

Profiles are private as a default setting!

that further implies that private profiles are randomly chosen.

No, they are not chosen “randomly”.

They are chosen by default and only players that know about this and are willing to show their profiles open them. It is more likely that they are better players.

@Minty-11551

@Trickster-21129

And you can’t also assume that data is reliable from the get go.

they’re from games that have been completed. why would i not think that it’s reliable?

We already talked about that. All you have is “I assume data is properly vetted and shown to be reliable” when this is not the case at all. If it would you would show this!

@Minty-11551

@Trickster-21129

You see I just gave you example that we don’t know if it is true or not.

examples aren’t conclusive
the massive sample size gives us a fair estimation of how things are w/ or w/o those few examples

What you said is irrelevant here…

You can’t know if this is or isn’t the case!

You now are sitting here and say stuff that is equivalent to “Riemann hypothesis is true, because no one can show it is false”. This is not how this works!

@Minty-11551

i assume that the data that is there is enough to cover up the issues emerged from these few examples

And you have to show that this is actually the case. Because I can justify anything by saying I assumed it!

@Minty-11551

i think the sample size is big enough that i can do that

Again, what you think has nothing to do with actual reality and what is true.

Truth is what the facts are. What you can show to be true. So present good evidence that support your claims!

And, just because you showed multiple times that you have no idea what we are talking about here when it comes to evidence and epistemology I will provide you with definition what classifies as evidence.

Evidence - A body of facts that are positively indicative of and/or exclusively concordant with only one hypothesis or position over any other.

@Minty-11551

so let’s go w/ your example of bad pharahs hide their profiles and good ones have it set to public
can we also assume that the same thing goes for other heroes and the portion people who are bad at a hero to the portion of people who are good at that hero are roughly the same amount in each rank?
then we can conclude that even if it sounds like it’s skewed and the win rate is a higher than it should be for pharah in reality every bad [hero name] player is doing that and putting pharah’s win rate right back at where it belongs

…

this is non sequitur!

@Minty-11551

you don’t put up a good evidence either you just make up hypothetical situations where it can be skewed which is no evidence

I don’t have to!

I am just saying that you didn’t meet your burden of proof! And I won’t let you pull out a logical fallacy on me!

You made the positive claim (that data is reliable) you have to provide evidence for it.

I just say that you didn’t do that, there is no burden of proof on me. Just the same when I say that I don’t believe that goblins are real. I don’t have anything to prove, since I don’t make a positive claim of them not existing.

come on, this is logic 101… You would know that if you would have anything to do with actual science!

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

@Trickster-21129

And now you shift burden of proof.

Please oh please go and learn about epistemology! Especially if you use same justifications in your day to day life. This approach can be harmful to you because you can be easily fooled and con artist can get advantage of you!

Oh come on. There’s no point in teaching or explaning something if someone alresdy has their minds set on ignoring.

What?

@NerfHEDSHOTs-3422

Two support mains are going at it for some reason.

This has nothing to do what role I play…

When someone is using logical fallacy I am going to call them out on that. I don’t care if they are support or not.

Actually this comment says a lot about your character!

[NerfHEDSHOTs-3422]

@Trickster-21129

Actually this comment says a lot about your character!

I appreciate your assistance, but I already know what happens when we start interacting. Thank you again. But I think I said my piece more than enough for now.