Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State

General Discussion
9083

I think you’ve misunderstood my point entirely if this is what you’re taking from it.

I would like to emphasize, again–the criticism is not a failure of argumentation (I think I may have confused with my use of coherence–I used it in reference to the idea of a conversation actually occurring and smoothly flowing, not to describe the rationality or logic of the conversation). There are plenty of people who come the forums to say “Bastion OP!!!1!!1!!!11!,” say “He’s UNKILLABLE HE MELTS YOU IN LESS THAN A SECOND” and then proceed to spend the rest of the thread making wildly incorrect statements and pulling up irrelevant facts to try to support their argument.

That’s not the criticism here. I think a very good example of the kind of stuff we are criticizing is an earlier question posed to MegaDodo by Titanium, in response to a claim from MegaDodo that a skilled Mercy player can increase the potency of Valkyrie through skilled play. In effect, Titanium asked them from where can the Mercy player derive said potency during Valkyrie: the staff, or the pistol? MegaDodo’s response? “These are both parts of Mercy’s kit, and a good Mercy will use her entire kit throughout the course of the game.”

Basically, a complete and total dodge of the question. Which, you know, if it happened once, twice, a few times, I think most people would’ve laughed it off and moved on. If they were just like, “Oh the pistol because she can heal people better…” well, the reasoning is wrong, but A for effort. But, very consistently, trying to hold a conversation with them is like this:

Poster: “I feel Mercy’s Resurrect should be an ult based on X, Y, and Z reasons, and Valkyrie should be a standard ability for A, B, and C reasons”
MegaDodo: “I respectfully disagree.”
Poster: “Why do you disagree? Valkyrie acts more like a standard ability than an ult, and Rez more like an Ult than a standard ability. They should be swapped.”
MegaDodo: “Factually, Valkyrie is Mercy’s ult. It is activated after gaining charge and by pressing the key bound to the Ultimate ability.”
Poster: “You didn’t answer my question.”
MegaDodo: “I respectfully disagree.”
Poster: “Okay, then I don’t think you understood my point. I’m not stating whether or not Valkyrie is currently Mercy’s ult. I am saying it should not be her ult.”
MegaDodo: “I have read all parts of the post and believe myself to understand every part of it, and I respectfully disagree.”

And on, and on, and on it goes. That’s not simply someone arguing poorly or incoherently–that’s someone outright stalling conversation entirely and derailing the thread. That is why MegaDodo is being labeled a troll–because at some point, a pattern becomes a pattern. And like I said–you may not feel that’s trolling. Several of us do. I think you’ll be hard pressed to convince us that it’s not.

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9084

Then you should quote it…

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9085

You might wanna do that again, doesn’t seem everyone heard it. I mean, it’s already hard to wrap one’s head around to start with.

9086

Nature of the beast. The most vocal aren’t necessarily the most rational. It’s unfortunate people on the receiving end of this can’t separate the message from the messenger. In this day and age, youtube and all that, it’s getting more difficult.

Those that don’t know, speak. Those that know, don’t speak. Ancient philosophy. Is how it is. Those that can see the big picture are typically aware of why those that don’t say what they do. They also are just tired of trying to fight that tendency.

For sure. I hope the best for all heroes in this game. I just wish more were mindful of making the “right” steps in the “right” direction, and not so caught up in just personal posturing in a lot of ways.

Crazy stuff. Kids be wild.

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9087

It’s not the fault of the players that their characters had fit the intended roles they started out with and ended up having their characters changed so dramatically and they were unhappy that there character no longer fit the role they signed up for.

I know it is a board game, but look at the way people play D&D. Lots of people play with Fun trumps Balance rules.

In video games FUN is the most important aspect. A character needs to be fun and then balance looks to make sure that there is equal fun in a multiplayer game. You sign up for frustration when playing a multiplayer game, but you sign up for BALANCED frustration.

I used to be a D.va main before the less time DM and micro-missiles and this to me was the worst decision they ever made, because in my eyes it started a drastic change that pushed many tank toward more damaging roles rather than their team protection roles.

I also believe that the community is entirely too whiney about DM’s impact.
Woopie do it is a blocking ability that blocks less than normal shields and is less reliable than a regular shield.

I mean shields and DM do less than deflect for christs sake but we all like to conveniently ignore that to suit the “DM” is OP narrative. I mean, the best block can often be Zarya’s bubble because it blocks more than Deflect.

DM just needed adjustments and D.va needed abilities that promoted protection.
EG. Shorten the length of DM to two layers and have the distance in layers be slightly smaller and then as a cooldown ability an early eject function that only works while the mech is still functional which can launch D.va further away and depending on the health of the mech, it reduces the time to get mech back from a voluntary de-mech.

D.va didn’t need micro-missiles or to shoot while flying, it has made her far too good at a job she isn’t supposed to be doing. She is a TANK, not a DPS. Her role should be creating space and tanking. Not all the DPS she does now.

There is just a lot of balance issues in the game right now, like solving all problems by adding more damage which ends up forcing a need for bigger and stronger heals and it is just a cycle of problematic.

And balancing to pros ends up undervaluing good strategy and thought with heroes like Sym, etc. They want instant gratification without much setup.
This is why certain heroes don’t work for pros, but maybe that is the way it should be. Not everything will be professional worthy, but can be community worthy.

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9088

Oooh, nice. Makes me want to hop on to my Diablo 3 account.

9089

I am not defending anyone’s argumentative form in this thread. Be it Titanium, Megadodo, yours, or anyone’s.

There was nothing to misunderstand in what you quoted. When I said…

That was a statement of fact. That applies to everyone listed above.

Do I have problems with how Megadodo has made their arguments? For sure. Same with Titanium. Same with you. Same with everyone. What do I gain by trying to quantify the subtle differences between these things?

You said…

Exactly. What do I gain from engaging such extreme and unrealistic stuff?

Now, what qualifies as extreme and unrealistic? My qualification, my definition, is most likely different from yours.

I can tell Megadodo approached and participated in this discussion in ways you disagree with. You have every right to feel that way.

What you quoted that I said was saying I feel that way with literally all of you. If we aren’t willing to compromise though… Then there’s no point in talking.

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9090

That is being purposefully ignorant.

9091

No, it wasn’t. It was the developers deciding they wanted to remove certain elements from their game. Is what it is.

My grandma played Solitaire. I never found Solitaire fun. Should it change for me?

Balance is one of the key points of achieving “equal fun in a multiplayer game.”

I don’t see how “balancing for pros” has resulted in what you’ve described regarding Sym. Unless you’re saying the pros are why Sym 3.0 happend and Sym 2.0 had more strategy and thought… That’s highly arguable… Like… See? Land of subjective.

Pros are not a unified collective. It’s a lot of different people working together.

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9092

My point here was that I don’t think that Animetic would lead or even endorse a group of people whose express aim is to dramatically change Mercy

9093

Factually, there are many posts by many different anti mercy people across many Mercy related threads where some call for mass rez to be returned, and many others that call for rez in all forms to be removed entirely

9094

Mutual understanding is possible, it’s mutual agreement that is elusive in any conversation. The possibility of mutual understanding is what drives people to continue soldiering on in any discussion.

And once mutual understanding is achieved, if both parties discuss in good faith, they can agree to disagree, and that’s a good conclusion to two parties willing to compromise, but can’t.

There is only one case where mutual understanding is impossible – and that’s when one party is communicating in bad faith.

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9095

Your continued use of Anti-Mercy as a term is despicable and disrespectful. Kindly refrain from using that term on any side, since it is NOT COOL.

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9096

Depends on what your definition of “mutual understanding” is. That’s why I said “True understanding that is” right after. If this past week has showed anything on this forum it’s that “mutual understanding,” even with a loose definition, is extremely elusive.

If we’re running on a loose “mutual understanding,” like we “mutually understand” that we’re meeting up on Friday to get drunk at X pub, then sure. Achievable. Depends on the context. Where do you draw the line?

Edit: We can come to a “mutual understanding” that Mercy is in a less than ideal state. Then we can argue in good faith from that. Doesn’t mean we “mutually understand” our perspectives in approaching this subject, or our desired outcomes, both of which can be at extreme odds, regardless of our previous “mutual understanding.”

And down the rabbit hole we go… We’re all mad here, Alice.

9097

I find this terminology to be clear and cohesive.

I do not find it to be despicable or disrespectful given the unambiguous definition I have provided for it

9098

That was some good times. I remember a couple people screaming bingo 5 posts in.

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9099

Ah but factually it’s misleading. Much as you might find it not so, that’s only because you invented this particular flavor of the terminology and thus you totally understand it. That’s amazing for you. Not great for someone that’s not you.

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9100

Witness me! Carrying biscuits and handing them out! Also; Bingo.

9101

I do not find the terminology to be misleading, but instead clear and unambiguous

9102

Not every single post calls for the return of Mass Rez.

However, there are a multitude of posts where people describe very similar reasons as to why they don’t think the current Mercy is the right Mercy.

There is room for negotiation, people were negotiating the moment she was first changed. People didn’t like her when she was OP and easy. People don’t like her now when she is sort of balanced but feels garbage when using certain things just feel like lots of the changed aspects of her kit takes skill away.

We like her being mechanically easy, as in we like the simplicity of many of her skills but we don’t like the usage being made more mindless and easy than it was previous.

Like how her base beams are easy to use, but not necessarily easy to master and maximise efficiency for gameplay wise.

Asking for changes to a character you love to improve maximum skill floor is not against Mercy. It is so she can be seen as more skillful in everything she does whilst still being entry level enough.