So why is there no other game, be it MOBA or FPS that has a Mass Rez mechanic? Where people who have been killed are brought back en masse?
The only example I’ve been made aware of is from Dirty Bomb and it was hellsqueen that brought that to my attention. It however has a knocked system, where if a person is the confirmed after being knocked, they are not effected by the rez. That makes it quite different.
I’m saying mass Rez is a bit more powerful as a mechanic because only one hero has it. Rez isn’t as strong as we make it out to be nor mass rez. It’s just stronger in overwatch because no one other than Mercy can do it. This is seen also with Lucio where his monopoly of speed makes it that much better.
Speed is good. Rez is good. But why can Lucio give so much speed? Why can mercy and was mercy able to rez so Much? Because no one else can.
Huh?
What does multiple heroes having a rez mechanic have to do with Mass Rez as a mechanic? Mercy has single target rez now. So let’s give Lucio, Zen, and Ana and whoever single rez too. Cool. What does that have to do with Mass Rez?
Most Rez mechanics require a certain class, or certain kit, to be taken in order to perform it. Not legit everyone can do it.
I really have no idea what you’re trying to argue. Just because Mercy is the only one that can rez that means she should have Mass Rez? No man.
mass rez as a function was never broken because rez itself isn’t “that” powerful. Mercy’s monopolization makes it restricted so that advantage is that much more to your team’s benefit.
The power comes from how limited it is.
Again, let’s look at lucio and how he has been in more Metas than any other hero in the game. The meta centered around Lucio so often? Why? Because of his monopolization of speed. Lucio is more powerful because of his unique mechanic. Similarly, Ana is more powerful because of her unique monopolization to cut off healing.
Let’s look at mercy and rez. some other games restrict it to class, yes. But it isn’t usually a restriction on how many a team can have that can rez. Nor how many times that person CAN rez. OR the whole team can rez and it’s just longer to do. The rez mechanic isn’t so valuable there because it’s available in many forms.
I’m not saying Mercy needs Mass rez. I’m saying there is no fundamental design flaws to it. Mass Rez isn’t that powerful because Rez isn’t that powerful. Design mechanics around it in overwatch are flawed with cooldown rez, not mass rez as an ult.
Although I am fine with rez being removed since Mercy is uncontested in rez right now. She needs it gone or a competitor to lower its value for the community. Not really game. This is just me getting annoyed at how often I still hear/read how mass rez is broken. It’s not and never was, and rez isn’t the most “powerful ability in the game” so I’d rather the mechanic be dead and buried with at this point.
<~Although such a change would likely mean the game has turned in a manner i would just leave altogether~>
Speed boost only effects alive team mates. Rez only effects dead team mates. There is a fundamental difference to being alive and dead. Mass Rez then is the ability to effect multiple dead people. It could be used to rez jist 1, or 5, depending on the situation.
The fact that the difference between alive and dead is so severe places Mass Rez is in it’s own category.
There is no comparison.
Mass Rez is vastly different from singular rez. It’s not a matter of power but of how the mechanic interacts with the game as a whole.
You got any examples of Mass Rez in other games?
for what purpose? The only comparison is power not use. Ana nade is nothing like widow grapple. Disc orb is not like hack. It’s about power. I think rez is strong, but not as powerful as you make it out to be. and the design of rez in overwatch makes it fine for mass rez to be a thing.
I don’t care about other games. I care about this one. If I want it to be like other games, all supports would rez. I do not. I think symm and mercy should have rez and that would be fine.
Other games let me customize my hero. Other games let me be dark skinned. And others don’t.
That’s not my focus. Mine is how rez plays into this game and it’s power. Into this genre of game and its power and I gotta say : it ain’t that great:
For what purpose is alive different than dead?
Is this an honest question? I don’t see why I’d need to explain the differences between a player being dead and alive in this game and how that effects things.
I have made no argument for the power of rez. In my opinion, Mass Rez is a trash ult. With instant cast, invuln, no LOS, it was still a trash ult. What of it?
How Mass Rez interacted with this game was problematic. Thus why it was moved from the 1:1-5 mechanic to the 1:1 mechanic we have now. That is 1 button press = 1 person being rezzed. Not 1 button press = 1-5 being rezzed. 1:1-5 mechanic has numerous problematic interactions with this game from Bronze to Pro.
I have no reason to think Mass Rez should be in this game. I ask you for examples of Mass Rez in other games in hopes of having an example of it working successfully. I think we can both agree there is no such example.
Therefore… No reason for Mass Rez.
I think we can agree on this.
i disagree. I dont think any game needs anything because it’s a game.
Between mass rez and cooldown rez, mass rez is the better game design. Ult rez flat, is better game design.
I think mass rez worked fine in Overwatch. I think the issue came from making it too strong with invulnerability instead of like, a disc priest barrier or a fortify ability. That’s not an issue of mechanics, thats on the game reward system. That’s a dev issue, not a kit issue. I was fine with Mercy being strong in lower tiers and struggling in higher tiers. I just think she needed an extra ability to compete in terms of her burst output being limited to her ult so her consistency needed to be more in her own control with minor suitability
i disagree, This is just as fine as any dps using their ult to kill 1-6 enemies.
Mass Rez was fine. It was compensation for mercys lack of midfight. makes sense imo
Why? From a game design perspective, what reason is Mass Rez better than single rez?
In coordinated settings Mass Rez was still weak with invuln and all that. Was used to rez Pharah. Where’s this too strong stuff coming from? Gold tier?
Those are completely different. Not even comparable.
Why was Mass Rez good? From a game design perspective. Please explain. All you’ve said is in your opinion it’s good, you have given no reason.
then you didn’t read the essay I wrote detailing exactly what you’ve asked and linked in a reply.
you’re right. Death is more powerful than rez.
too strong for exploits. Again… in my essay I detail this. Similarly, While my essay explains what I think,
you have not said what about it is bad other than
in what way?
I don’t like when people assign me homework. When someone links me to another thread, chances are I won’t read it.
Why you bringing up this powerful stuff again? I haven’t said one is more powerful than another, or said much about Rez’s power at all. Rez just interacts with the game in a fundamentally different way than literally everything else in the game. That’s just fact. Rez is the only thing that can affect a dead player.
The 1:1-5 mechanic allows for things like incentivizing allowing a team mate to die. To neglect healing, or utilizing all of your kit in order to prevent your own or a team mates death, and simply allow it so you can get more people in the same area at the same time. More return.
Thus the hide and rez, thus the stuff about it being “broken gameplay” in a sense. Gameplay that was felt didn’t belong in this game. Was contradictory to the game, and in a sense the hero itself.
Furthermore, in coordinated settings, Mass Rez was regulated to being used to bring up Pharah. There was no big bait and switch sort of big brain mass rez plays in coordinated settings, as it relies on a lack of coordination, and your team mates being dead.
Nothing else interacts with the game and other players in a similar way. Rez is completely unique, and Mass Rez is a step further due to the 1-5 variable. Thus why Rez is now 1:1.
It makes sense.
then dont complain when I don’t respond. I already wrote out my ideas in a manner that was organized (at least as much as i was willing to on my phone at work). I already took the time to share this idea I have, I shared it to you, and you choose to ignore it. That’s not on me.
So? unique means you consider that when working around it. Similarly, mobility acts differently for different heroes.
TO incentivize it, there needs to be a base reason to do it. There is no such encouragement for mercy. There was none. The only times I can think of a support being incentivized to do anything is for symm as a support (im not going to go into that) and ana
Ana had 80 dps and 75 hps. That imo gave ana “incentive” to dps over heal. Her dps output is higher than healing. It makes sense. nothing inherently says a six man high noon is always better than 3. Nothing inherently says a five man rez was always better than 3.
And in most cases, waiting for the max is bad unless you don’t want to climb out of silver. No one forces or tells players how to play. The game doesn’t say mercy will heal more for each rez. Or for each dps to wait for zarya grav to ult at the same time.
hide and rez isn’t a mechanic problem. it’s a reward problem imo But you will likely not read it so idk why I bother.
rez works more consistently and has less negative outcomes. That means they made rez work better inherently than mass rez ever did. And I think that was a mistake for a unique ability like rez. I think it is more powerful on cooldown and 1:1 than mass rez and therefore has design flaws.
I would’ve hoped you could just like tell me what you need to say relevant to what we’re saying. It’s not like I’m linking you to previous paragraphs I’ve written on this topic. I’ve written a lot, believe me.
Yes there is. Because of the way your healing works, if you try to save someone from dying, you could put yourself in danger. You could die trying to save that person, then not be able to rez. So, it makes sense to let them die.
Then, you have the 10 seconds it takes before they respawn and you can no longer rez them. As you can only interact with dead team mates when using rez. Then people game this whole sort of system. This is most prevalent when you have a 1:1-5 system. Thus hide and rez.
That is just the nature of how the mechanic interacts with the game. Then, the level of discoordination in the game and such dictates it’s success rate. Thus why in coordinated settings you just used it to bring up 1 person.
Hide and rez is just part of the 1:1-5 mechanic. How successful depends on the setting it’s used in. That’s why I say Mass Rez is a trash ult in a lot of ways.
It was a trash ult. That in coordinated settings was used basically how 1:1 is used now. Save the “powerful,” “OP,” “uncounterable,” argument for people that care about it. I don’t. Nothing I’ve said touches on any of that noise.
it is. it’s literally summarized explaining why I think rez needs to be an ult, why its bad design, and why it is not as strong as we treat it
then a fortify ability sounds like a better, more consistent option. Moreover, if mercy makes a decision to have some people die because of the risk, that sounds like a pro and con. Not an incentive. Some versus all isn’t the same. You argue that its a problem for hide n rez: that’s basically for all or maybe 4. In this case, rez isnt the incentive. Death is.
exploits are based in rewards. fix the system:
how much “power” is in an ability touches game design. I’m saying it’s too strong as a basic ability. I would think a solo high noon every thirty seconds would be too strong as a basic ability. This about design.
I don’t have an issue with counters in this game. You can’t stop ana from sending out nano, but no one complains about that.
I think rez was niche as an ult. It made it harder to climb with mercy and found its value in how mercy could read the layout of the field and the enemy players. Niche and trash aren’t the same. I think it was good to be niche because Mercy’s consistency in strong healing made her a solid choice at any level. If you wanted to get more value from the inherent value of her base kit, you needed to find value in mass rez. “Rez value” was on the capability of Mercy.
Yes it is a pro and a con. One that only takes place due to how Rez is the only ability that affects DEAD team mates and only dead team mates. No other support considers allowing a team mate to die in the same way.
The incentive comes from the fact you can allow multiple people to die and then come and undo it. Thus hide and rez.
I don’t understand what you mean with this.
Why is it too strong as a basic ability? 1:1 Rez is a basic ability right now and Mercy is not doing well statistically.
You can get niche in a lot of ways. There’s lots of niche heroes and none of them need Mass Rez to be niche. What you want from Mercy isn’t what everyone wants from her.
I see no reason for Mass Rez. Lots of reasons for there not to be though. That doesn’t mean you can’t be unhappy with current Mercy, and maybe she should change. I think it’s best to find whatever that feeling is your chasing in ways that don’t require a 1:1-5 mechanic. There’s no reason for 1:1-5 imo. Other than appeasing those people who loved it so much they can’t let go of it.
other supports offer other things more powerful: aiding death
the fact you can do something isnt incentive. you can also never rez and only battle mercy. It’s not being promoted tho
mercy is doing bad because to balance it, everything else was nerfed. If McCree has a mini high noon every 30 seconds, he would likely have his base dps nerfed too.
I dont care about what others think. I care about what I think in terms of design. What makes a stronger game with rez as a mechanic? Imo, mass rez, not cooldown rez. Or take it out.
I see no reason for Mercy or Widow to be in the game. Not really the issue. Mercy could have a strong base kit and no ult and I’d be fine if it was at least in line with her hero design. They could take mercy and remove and rework her entire kit, and I’d be fine as long as it was in line with her hero design and game design.
I’ve only seen you argue hide n rez which I think wouldn’t exist if you fixed the system that rewards mercy for rez numbers.
I would go back to not playing mercy if she had rez again. I mostly picked her up casually because of valkyrie being the best/worst ult in the game.
My issue with mercy and her rework is her ult is bloated and bad, and cooldown rez doesnt match her design, the game’s design, and ruins her play.
Mercy’s ult was changed and she gained an E ability, Rez. The rest of her kit only improved through the added GA tech until the recent -10 hps nerf. Valk has been adjusted, and Rez has been adjusted. So no, “everything else was nerfed” is not correct.
Disagree. Hide and Rez, as it was understood at the time, is gone. Rez is an E ability and Mercy might need help right now. I don’t know if the -10 hps nerf was necessary, would’ve liked to have seen how things played out with her still at 60 hps myself.
Then why are we talking about this? If that’s how you feel… Cool… Seems pointless to talk about it then?
function to play, yes. her base healing nerf hurt her design into a middling support, she gained valk which has to be capped because it’s bloated so her ult fight was nerfed. Rez takes time out of her base play so her flow was ruined in favor of an ability. Thus her base play was interrupted, her base kit was nerfed, and her ult value shifted to normal play so she has no ult fight capabilities.
I think everything was nerfed.
Yea for its purpose before. It just has a new iteration now. That’s at the cost of her base play. That isn’t better. Similarly, if rez was removed, that fixes hide and rez. Similarly, if mercy was removed, that fixes hide and rez. Or they couldve fixed the system in which it thrived.
it wasn’t imo. But I still would have game and hero design issues.
you asked about design. I am interested in game and hero design surrounding mercy. I am for other heroes too. For mercy, her rework with valk and cooldown rez is bad design imo. I don’t see why I have to love her kit or her character in order to have an opinion on design and theory for her.
Base healing nerf was just the most recent. Valk was introduced way before then. Not saying Valk is a great ult or anything, it’s not bad either.
Rez having a cast time is a fair compromise on it. Having to commit to it for 1.75 seconds is fair. You have to commit to damage boosting instead of healing, etc. I don’t have this whole omfg my hero is ruined experience every time I press E like some people seem to.
I don’t see much point in talking to someone that is like “yo lets just remove rez and remove Mercy” to fix a problem.
So I’m just going to call it here. Good… ish… talk I guess.
yeah. And before her nerf before the 60 hps, i think mercy was a bit overtuned.
Valk is an OP Ult imo which is why it has such limits in numbers on it. It’s not a bad ults at all. It’s too good imo.
again… in my essay:
I even use the term “fair” in regards to it, but the context of the next few paragraphs is needed.
I said I wouldn’t mind. Nor do I see how it’s any different than “let’s remove mass rez to fix a problem”
Sorry I’m not a lover of Mercy to make your assumption of me true. I didn’t love mass rez. I didn’t love mercy. I don’t even like her design aesthetically. But I have ideas about how she could have been fixed and avoided valk altogether because I do care about design. Just because my values don’t align with what you want doesn’t mean I don’t have valid points.
Additionally, I’m not suggesting mercy be removed. I’m merely pointing out that the same result of her problems being gone, would be just as gone if she were too.
do you.