Kaz, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? What is the point you’re trying to make?
I actually quite like them. Honestly, my biggest beef with Mass Rez was the “die on point” strategy where, instead of Mass Rez being a reactive safety net, it was treated as a proactive strategy in which your team intentionally died on the point to allow the Mercy to come Mass Rez for the phat SR and POTG. Yes, I know not every Mercy did this, but enough did that I really despised it.
The suggestions in the OP, I think, are a very efficient prescription to solving that problem because it A) removes incentive to wait for the full Mass Rez, and B) adds risk so that Mass Rez’ing without at least someone to help peel becomes extremely impractical. It’s basically the change that should have been made to Mass Rez in the first place, rather than the… masterpiece, shall we call it, that we have now.
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Hello there, PuffyPony! I haven’t seen you around before (in Mercy threads, that is). What brings you to this corner of the forums?
I actually do comment in Mercy threads periodically ![:slight_smile:](https://d74zh8edaijub.cloudfront.net/en/overwatch/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=5" ":slight_smile:")
Maybe I just blend into the crowd.
But you know. General interest in promoting a balanced, healthy, enjoyable game… Something like that. I’m not a Mercy main by any means (DPS main mostly), but that doesn’t mean I can’t want to see Mercy in a good spot, especially since supports have a fairly drastic impact on the meta.
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It’s refreshing to see non-support mains get in on the discourse about a “fair, balanced and fun” Mercy. She has a special place in my heart.
Maybe it’s just my feelings clouding my view, but I think that Mercy is crucial to bringing in a wider playerbase. So many of the “Mercy main” anecdotes I’ve seen start of admitting that they normally don’t play FPS, but it was Mercy that got them to try (and buy) Overwatch.
I know that I usually stick to RPGs and action platformers (e.g. Spyro, Sly Cooper, etc), but Mercy looked awesome and all the guides at the time portrayed her as an RPG/RTS healer in an FPS. They were right 
But that was before her rework 
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lolwut?
No i actually answered it, pretty clearly actually.
do i really need to copy and past the denial of evidence doesn’t stop the existence of that evidence thing again? 'cause this is getting old.
And copy and paste the one about pigeon chess?
For real, you really should look up that term, it pretty much explains how this post of yours is going so far.
No bias btw?
You can reenvision it which ever you want to, it still is what it is. A fallacy.
Yup, okay. We’re really doing this again. But first I would just like to note the irony here, as so far this last post of yours has done exactly that.
Is this another one of those mental gymnastics attempts? What ever, i don’t actually care that much.
I mean yeah, that would in fact be a strawman. But what actually happened was:
See. You both argued for and against the same thing in order to continue arguing for what ever reason… And have still yet to provide any substance to an argument that isn’t just another fallacy.
odd? I never said the developers said anything. What i did say was:
As evident by the many questionable balance decisions that have taken place regardless of what the devs have said in the past. But continue this straw man if you wish.
Their statement of destroying d.va’s tankyness far before spam meta was even a thing was when they made d.va into a 600hp dps? I think you kind of started in the middle of that rework.
well you’ve got two on lock.
because it’s a powerful combo that can carry a team, and has, with team comps and meta’s built around that fact.
You joke, but the overwatch reddit has more user activity. One of the leading causes is specifically because this forum is seen as an echo chamber where no real discussion can take place. Can’t imagine where they got that thought.
Yeah but the original point was:
I never once argued that mobility does or does not need accompanying utility, as you specifically tried to change the point too.
yet… you were the one who mentioned moira…
See? I mean, unless you meant to say Mercy stats. And even then that argument holds no ground. You didn’t know how to look up gm specific starts for hero’s, yet you doubled down after i explained to you how to do it, and said you did know how to look them up, and you remembered them… from before mercy’s rework, as far back as season 4? if I remember that conversation correctly.
So either your lying to save face… or you’re lying… to save… face?
I mean, i just addressed it again, broke down your same argument to you again and explained how you couldn’t possibly be arguing in good faith with being caught in a lie, or a lie, depending on how ever you want to spin your mental gymnastics on that one.
And still, none of that did in fact address the original point. So yes, a red herring.
You’re doing pretty good so far.
I am so glad you dug that up. Now everyone can see both the quote where you said there is no way to look up gm stats specifically, me pointing out how to do it, you saying you feel silly that you always did it another way and then you arguing later on that you knew how and remembered what it was in this same thread. That’s actually amazing.
Even more amazing now since you thought that got you anywhere further than proving my point all along.
That’s not a straw man either. You and me have in fact both linked that thread. The difference is what you linked from that conversation came after you admitting you had no idea how to look up gm stats.
I can’t believe you’re actually doubling down on this.
It wasn’t me who made those argument, as you very clearly have quoted for us all to read.
It just gets better. This was by far your most honest argument yet, and you don’t even realize it.
Lol, just look at what you quoted specifically.
Again, just look at what you quoted specifically.
Um. Look what you quoted and then reread what you think you quoted again. ^ I made it easy and quoted you quoting it.
I mean if you were talking about Bunny hop, then yes that was in fact first a bug, that was quickly called slingshot, and you very specifically said the mechanic your talking about wasn’t that so… it’s pretty safe of me to assume you’re not talking about bunny hop. 'cause if you are you seriously have some facts wrong.
No you’re sitting here saying mercy is bad, boring, and you’re not even playing overwatch currently, at least by what you’ve said in previous posts in this thread. I’m saying very specifically that’s not the case, mercy just isn’t meta. The same way in that prior example, I explained how hanzo wasn’t bad, he just wasn’t meta.
A hero can be perfectly fine and still look like trash if the meta’s against them. Look at Ana since they gave her back her 3 combo. Now people are calling her broken.
Actually, that happens a lot. I’ve now given two examples.
No… what i said was I was explaining your own logic to you. But if you want examples of that, just look at our entire exchange.
- you both admit to not knowing how to look up gm stats, and then going on to say later you always knew and it was specifically 13kish in GM, after admitting you always looked it up a different way and felt silly when told it was possible.
- Or the weird made up thing you say GA used to do before the rework that wasn’t a bug but was only introduced after the rework as a bug and then later turned into a bunny hop.
- Or you constantly moving the goalposts in an argument trying to get to the bottom of what you really meant by “alternative”
- Or you saying Mercy is in a healthy state, then shown her current state is pretty much the same and then you going on to say that’s not a healthy state.
- Or …
I mean, do I really need to continue? It’s just kind of sad at this point. And I’ve specifically mentioned in past discussions with you how you continue to do these things.
If that’s what helps you sleep at night.
I mean, You had the source all along. You chose to deny the existance of it. Which i’ve been saying all along, pretty much copy and pasting it. This post specifically started with it.
I honestly don’t care if you read it or not at this point. Your denial of evidence does not stop the existence of that evidence. I’m sorry.
Yes, I did say that. I also said it was documented in the article. Twice in fact.
Yes, I can in fact agree with 70 people’s opinion that mercy should have had an e ability before her rework. I can also disagree with the reasoning they put forth for that.
In fact i’ve also explained why and how I’ve done that too you personally.
as they did with bastion, as they did with hanzo, as they did with brigitte. The point is still moot.
ignoring mercy’s entire kit got better in many ways to blame new res 'cause bias. it’s not mas res.
hyperbole to detract from the other useful applications of the new ult, 'cause bias. its not mass res.
Ignoring the team effort it requires to get off a clutch res in a hectic battle. Ignoring the increased skill cap to mercy’s game sense it requires to make great decisions about who and where to res as she can now be punished for bad ones. Ignoring her new ult is now best used to aid her team offensively so mercy is actually in the fight, as well as ignoring the many instances of battle mercy being a great strat, as shown by both arc and neptuno in overwatch league on a few instances. 'cause bias. It’s not mass res.
Was this actually a problem addressed by devs? I’m being genuine here. Either way getting a pick reversed, with the chance to punish it is much better than wasting 2+ well coordinated ults to team wipe, knowing you’re just going to have to team wipe again from a mile away.
I’m not even sure you know what you were trying to say there, tbh.
So me showing you mercy is practically in the same spot this patch as your example of mercy being healthy, is somehow negated because things that happen in previous patches? Her pick rate is speratic or something along those lines right? After we just went over how pick rate isn’t everything and context does in fact matter when discussing pick rate. Or are you actually going to try and say you debunked that too? By all accounts, I was ignoring it, as it didn’t pertain to what I was quoting, or the original point to begin with, which is Mercy does great in her niche, her niche just isn’t worth running this meta. Now with new torb and Phara’s got a buff, seems that changed. The meta’s been shook up. Imagine that.
I mean, i’ve given you an example of four already made by you alone, which included this same instance specifically, which has now been broken down further for you. You sure this isn’t more projecting?
opinion made from bias.
denial.
you mean:
Yeah i know. That’s why i said it. You’re so busy trying to place the blame on the one thing you personally believe is the problem, that you ignore every other reason.
Not really. By far the most mobile hero in the game. Even tracer has a 3 second cooldown on her blinks and only take her 22.5m if she uses all 3 blinks, with a total of 9 second to recharge them all. Compare that to mercy’s 30m + bunny hop on 1.5 seconds. Provided mercy is playing with her team, in a team based fps, she can literally out mobility a Tracer.
Moira, who averages trash damage similar to lucio’s full damage? This is an exaggeration.
If you ignore the rest of that, yeah totally just 2 things. Remember, context matters.
lol. Yes, moira doing a point of damage on a person before they die is in fact counted as an elimation. You’re totally right though. Moira does rack up those 24 eliminations. How many of those do you actually think are legitamite elims by her?
That is not how that works at all, but if thats what helps you sleep at night.
Considering you refuse to adapt to her new playstyle, and have outright admitted you don’t play. I’m not even sure you can argue this in good faith without it coming from bias.
Do your own homework, i’ve already provided you the link once.
We were? That can’t possibly be true because if that was actually the argumant being made, I would have laughed and said that argument only holds up till they nerfed res reset with valk, and yet she was still meta, playing in dive as the main healer keeping the core, zen and winston, alive. Most notably zen 'cause he had it pretty rough in dive. It was basically a game of who gets to kill the other zen first and prevent mercy from ressing him.
No, I’m saying you’re doing that thing again where you say something went one way, but it didn’t.
I mean, for someone who played Mercy in GM pre rework and didn’t exploit the sr system to get there, nothing has really changed for the worse if thats really your old playstyle. In fact it would be more engaging because tempo ressing is the only possibility now, which requires a lot more game sense or coordinated team work to pull off, while also giving her the option to aid her team offensively.
But you know, fun is subjective and I can respect that opinion.
I have, on many occasions.
So, you played her like a heal bot and got carried, or exploited the sr system then with multiple mass res’ in a game? There is only so many ways that was actually possible with mercy’s old kit.
Well, I have laid out the only other two options… pick your poison I guess.
Actually I never said that. At all actually. I did say that’s her intended niche. I said that was her intended niche before the rework too. Strong single target pocket healer with the ability to ressurect. Still, I have never said it’s a good thing Mercy is hard stuck being a pocket healer.
Funny that.
No, I just didn’t feel like editing strike out’s in my own quote replacing 70’s with 40’s.
Also if the rest of the post is your own creation, and the post is specifically you presenting what the 40 or so people have voted on, there’s not much else to say is your own creation. If you’re the one who came up with the argumants for the reasons those were voted, well then my other point stands. Your post is riddled with fallacy and bias.
At any rate, I’ve more than proven my point, and I’m kind of getting sick and tired of you arguing with logical fallacies saying you’ve disproven it. So i’m going to do us both a favor and mute you, like I did badwidow.
Honestly, I didn’t come here to make a point or to accomplish anything. I was brought into this thread after specifically saying I didn’t want to be brought into this thread because a discussion with titanium turns into exactly this. So I’m doing exactly what I’ve done everytime it comes to discussions with Titanium and defending my original point by pointing out every fallacy, every opinion presented as fact, every lie and every arguamnt made from bias that was made trying to disprove the original point.
If you’re at all curious as to where this started though, the irony of it is pretty hilarious.
But you’re right, there’s really no other point to be made here, which is why I’m muting them specifically.
I followed the link you provided.
Where’s the post that “picks apart the bias and the fallacies” of Titanium’s thesis? A link or quote of it would be appreciated, thanks.
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Omfg. (20 characters)
Well for one, it’s picks apart the bias and fallacies in that post. I would really hope you don’t consider this a thesis.
And the link to it was literally 2 posts down. Don’t expect anything too extravagant though, it’s certainly not the straw man people were making it out to be.
Edit: That part kind of happened in this post.
I read your post.
I couldn’t find anything that debunks the points that Titanium brought up in their thesis.
Said points being:
- Rez was more complex when it was an ult (math included)
- Mercy became overpowered after rez was put on E (proceeds to look very closely at E rez and how it affects mercy’s gameplay)
- Valkyrie and E rez make Mercy much simpler to play, and that doesn’t feel good for the people who used to enjoy Mercy for her RTS style gameplay
Can you debunk these?
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Oh wow, you actually do.
Feel free to read the discussion in this thread for yourself. It’s in there somewhere.
To paraphrase some of the answers from memory though.
- Res on e is actually impossible to be more complex than Mass res with invulnerability. Flying into a group of 5 dead team mates and 6 enemies and living through that is anything but complex. As opposed to e-res in it’s current state that requires a huge amount of game sense or team coordination to get off a res.
- Mercy’s becoming overpowered is the result of many factors to her new kit, including but definitely not limited to res on e. Mercy has res on E right now and she’s anything but overpowered, which pretty much destroys that point from being credible. That argument does not account for her new mobility with bunny hop, the momentum change to the entire game to make GA more fluid, the offensive capabilities of valk, the healing potential that high tier mercy’s achieved with valk in order to heal more than mercy has ever done, even more so than Moira a healer who has nothing but healing. The ease of Mercy’s healing mechanics, having no resource to manage in order to maintain that amount of healing. The self sustain she already had. The synergy damage boost has always had keeping Mercy at least somewhat relevant through every meta by pharmercy or sniper comps. And last but certainly not least, or at least many people seem to think so, the addition of res on e. Her kit was bloated and she was the best in every thing she did.
- Titanium has argued numerous times in this thread and others how useless he thinks Valkyrie is, yet refuses to use Valkyrie to it’s fullest potential, as an offensive ult with defensive capabilities. Even going as far as to argue it’s bad because it’s not either or both Orisa’s ult and Zen’s ult.
Really no reason for me to debunk it not “feeling” good to mercy mains who liked her old playstyle. In fact I completely agree blizzard did mercy mains dirty, and have also stated that in this post. It’s one of the few things I actually agree with Titanium on, which funny enough they even tried to argue that.
“Debunking” above post:
-
Mass resurrect is more complex: you have to choose, when to use it, and where, to make good use of it. With single resurrect it’s always “if it’s safe to use, use it”.
-
Mercy wasn’t overpowered, before resurrect became E ability. Which means that it’s cause behind her former OP status, and Blizzard nerfing everything else.
Valkyrie has no more offensive potential, that Supercharger, in fact, even less, due to lower boost and Mercy being unable to benefit from that boost. -
Full potential of Valkyrie is escaping fight/using pistol, that’s where it’s strongest part at the moment. It’s been explained a lot of times: it doesn’t make teammates more resilient, than simply healing them, and doesn’t make them more damaging, than just using damage boost. But, it makes Mercy more resilient and harder to kill…
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Going in for a 5 man rez isn’t “very complex”, true.
What about all the other uses for the old ult rez?
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Res on Q is more complicated than Res on E unless your goal is to always aim for numerical value.
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Even if you go for 5 players rez, it’s more complex. Where would be your spot, to resurrect everyone? Which route to that spot you should choose, so other team won’t stop you? Do you have time to get to that spot nice and quiet, or you have to use GA to make it in time?
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Yes, she has it on E right now, but with her healing rate, she hardly has time to use it without putting her team at risk for using it. If her healing rate gave her the healing necessary to actually use the rest of her kit, it would still remain powerful because Mercy can actually salvage from the time lost and damage done by doing said Rez. As it stands, a part of her kit that was never considered a problem was treated as a problem after her rework when no matter what they did to adjust Resurrect on E, it remained powerful.
Valkyrie also added to that, because while it is an underwhelming excuse for an ultimate, it makes people who don’t know the first thing about using Mercy’s base kit look good. Much like Soldier’s ultimate could make me look good with him even though I can’t use him for crap compared to other characters in the game, such as Mcree, I can aim better on Mcree than with Soldier but Soldier’s ult does all the work for me, so it would make me look better.
Valkyrie can be used and get value, but not much more value than what someone can do with her base kit. Valkyrie takes everything that you learn to do on Mercy’s base kit and does it for you make it dull as all hell. I don’t want to ult and have it do my beam juggling and target prioritization for me. I don’t want it to take my weaknesses away, such as my team reliant mobility because I have gotten very good at seizing mobility opportunities with GA, I didn’t need Valkyrie to hold my hand and do everything I already know how to do.
Mercy is no fun, because everything is handed to us. There is no challenge anymore. All the things to show skill were taken from us and reward handed to every person who doesn’t even know that they shouldn’t hold M1 on a tank all game.
Do you know how frustrating it is to know that Mercy’s pistol is what allows you to use the rest of her kit now? This sounds dumb, but I’ve had a game with silver eliminations, I hunted people and killed them and still didn’t lose out on any of my usual healing numbers or rez rates and I actually saved more people than I lost because rather than letting me team try, I killed them and made time to heal them. I was killing people before, but now it is a requirement to actually win games more frequently.
I chose Mercy because I don’t mind and actually prefer being a totally defensive support. I don’t mind sacrificing doing damage on my own and I don’t mind giving up stuff for most of the game to help my team achieve as a support, even if that means I am in the thick of it just trying to survive without fighting back on my own. This is my preferred play style as a support and yet, they took the only support that did that away from me by gutting her.
There is no support that gives up and acts purely for the team like she did. I don’t like to play support anymore because I don’t have a character left that lets me play the damn support style I liked. If I wanted to play a support that was more offensive, I would. If I wanted to shoot things a lot of the time, I would go play DPS.
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I fully agree with you that the suggested changes will fix this specific issue but I also wanna point out that the Mercy player saying “die on point” during a match did not necessarily mean “you should go get yourselves killed so I can get a good res off” but more along the lines of “hey, if y’all are about to die soon make sure to be clumped together so I can bring everyone back but it’s fine if you don’t die too, either works”.
I also think the change to the SR system to Diamond and above (which they should implement to below Diamond as well, it’s been a while Blizzard wtf) will remove the previous SR exploit as it won’t matter how many players you resurrect in a game, you’ll get a static amount of SR for the game anyway so you might as well find the most efficient way to use it that will benefit the team.
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You mean tempo ressing, the only other thing it could do, and was ultimately unimpactful for an ultimate, to the point it just wasn’t worth running in pro play?
She is on par with Moira’s healing average in GM, while still pulling off about the same amount of res’ as she did prior to that nerf. So no.
I mean, if it makes bad mercy players look good, and good mercy players don’t want to utilize it properly, there’s clearly a disconnect somewhere.
I mean, personal opinion and all, given fun is subjective. Regardless, I agree. But then I’ve always found Mercy’s kit to be boring, even prior to rework. The one thing I can attest to personally is it is a lot more engaging, since you’re actually in the fight now, with the option to battle mercy in the right situations.
What you just described is still the exact way she’s played. Even more so now. She has the option to go battle mercy, she has the option to use her ult offensively. The only thing different thing about her compared to what you described her as before the rework is mass res is gone. Which has taken her from completely hiding in a team fight, to actually being in the team fight helping. The exact thing you’re saying you like about her.
I don’t really want to get involved in this mess of an argument but…
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Instead of being proper support, you have to become wannabe DPS to make good use of Valkyrie. That’s clearly not same way she is played. If want to kill people to be useful, I just go DPS.
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