Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
1327

All I know is that from my experience when I play a role and only that role, I get good enough with it to get very consistent gold medals and will eventually climb up to my high-end SR limit. But doing so notice that people on my team often are terrible at their own roles, more and more so as I get better. To the point where winning games because nearly impossible, even though I still get very consistent medals for just about everything I can get. Now of course at higher levels team-work and game-sense become more and more important. But I have tried multiple times switching to the ‘bad player’ roles to see if they are really that bad, and immediately get feedback that yes, they actually are, this seems very odd to me.

So I then change role to try and counter this effect so I don’t lose too much SR, but because these roles are not my primaries I start losing a lot of SR, so I push ahead to see what will happen, then after a long grind I slowly climb up again as I get better and better at this new role, and again notice the people playing the other roles on my team get very bad at their job, forcing me to make up for it again by changing roles to do their job for them.

Now eventually have a huge pool or hero’s I am pretty good with, to get a more and more stable SR.

If this is true then it seems to me you need to be able to do everything in overwatch to be able to get good SR, which aligns with Jeff saying that if you only one trick you are going to have a bad time.
I think in some sense this is very honest, but I also think it is asking a lot from players, and at the same time feels extremely unfair for players who have become insanely good with their hero of choice, only to get punished by very bad players to support them.

1328

Man, I started playing in lunar fest and I’m steadily climbing. Currently I’m silver.

But I’d like to see a different model. Why are you so adamant in keeping the status quo?

Is it going in your favor?

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1329

You’re wasting your time friend. I’ve done some research on the people who comment. All the people who complain about the system being rigged are plat and below, while we masters+ players are trying to explain them how the system is actually balanced. They’ll never understand. They’d rather blame their teammates amd be hardstuck at a certain rank rather than actually try to improve their gameplay so they can actually climb. It’s funny how people think that if you go from 2500 to 1400 the “MMR” says your rank is still ~2500. I’m 100% sure that MMR is extremely closely related to SR, and goes up and down when you win matches (except when a person is decayed, and the situation is a bit different but people who make crazy theories about the system are below diamond so they wouldn’t know how decay works). People actually think that they have the MMR of a 3000 player and are at 2000 SR and that they are matched with people with 2000 SR and 1000 MMR equivalent. This comment section is filled with people who think they are never the problem and that the world is against them. You won’t manage to change their minds. The only real scenario in which they realize is if they climb, but they’re all stuck for good in low ranks and do not have the mentality needed or motivation to get out.

SOOO, basically, we’re wasting our time trying to explain why the system is a decent one.

Edit: I’m pretty sure I repeated myself a lot but you get the gist of it

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1330

In Cuthberts explanation of “handicapping” what you say above wouldn’t be true. A Handicapping matchmaker could recognize that someone is playing better than the avg person at their tier, and then arrange teams in a way to create a “fair” 50/50 match. If this happened then it would keep the “better than avg” player at a lower rank than he deserves.

Your explanation only works if I believe the matchmaker works the same way you do, which I don’t.

1331

You hit the nail on the head here. All these conspiracy theories have as their core not just the belief that the person is better than their current SR would indicate (which does happen) but the belief that Blizzard somehow knows your “potential” SR and uses it against you to keep you at your current SR.

It requires an astounding feat of mental gymnastics to believe that the system doesn’t recognize your true rank and also believe that the system actually does recognize your true rank but persecutes you.

This kind of thinking is the cause of comp problems, not the result of them. All this complaining, but they still play the game. Just leave and let me play with people that aren’t salty about a number.

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1332

Can you please stop using unfair descriptions about the people in this thread? I’m mainly talking about your use of the term “conspiracy theory”. Check out the actual definition:

Conspriacy Theory:
a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.

Nobody here believes that any “covert group” or organization is doing something with the matchmaker. We all know it is Blizzard designers who created the matchmaker, and more importantly please understand that Cuthbert nor anyone who is reasonable in this post believes that Blizzard is doing anything to intentionally hold us back or make us mad. I believe they have good intentions with their matchmaking design but it isn’t optimal.

In other words, Blizzard has 100% good intentions with the way the matchmaker works by creating “fair matches” and we are speaking up saying “we don’t like the way you have designed this because it has unintentional consequences” as outlined in Cuthberts OP.

Of course, disagree with us, state your reasons why you disagree but it’s not a productive conversation if we start to embellish our descriptions of the other people here. Be fair to people you disagree with and they’ll be fair back when addressing you, it feels much better than having a nasty name calling argument.

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1333

Dude, in the past you have accused me of working for Blizzard, or having some other illicit connection to Blizzard that I’m hiding. That is, that I’m a member of a covert organization trying to obscure “the truth”. I can dig up the quote if you want.

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1334

I still think you have some sort of affiliation with Blizzard, whether it be working there, wanting to work there, knowing someone who works there etc. You spend more time defending Blizzard matchmaking than you do actually playing the game. You have spammed the forum boards for the past year defending matchmaking by pasting links to a very long explanation you have of how the matchmaker works, full of charts and graphs (10-15 bar graphs?).

Do I have a hypothesis about you having an affiliation with Blizzard? Yes, I absolutely do and I stand by that. Do I believe Blizzard matchmaking was created to make people mad and hold them at lower ranks? Not in the slightest.

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1335

Yep, some people just try their best to end any kind of discussion.

Right now they are probably seeing if the fight starts so someone locks the thread.

1336

The pro MM guys say the matches are fine because the MM gets a 50/50 matchup.

We say that maybe a 50/50 matchup is not what this mode needs.

In my eyes this can be a nice discussion and both points of view can be reasonable.

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1337

If Blizzard was doing something other than what they repeatedly say they would be acting in a covert way. Covert: not openly acknowledged or displayed

Though there are other definitions:

A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event (1) or situation that invokes an unwarranted conspiracy, generally one involving an illegal or harmful act (2) carried out by government or other powerful actors (3). Conspiracy theories often produce hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of history or simple facts (4). The term is often a derogatory one (5).

(1) Rather than thinking that people are random or you are not as good as you think you are, or sometimes stomps happen, this particular idea attempts to explain why you lose by (2) positing that the MM intentionally puts bad players on your team to make the matches “even” and this is (3) designed by Blizzard despite repeated claims by Blizzard (4) to the contrary and evidence from people that are able to climb when actually improperly placed. (5) People that assert things without evidence are bad enough, but this whole idea that the MM can do things that it clearly cannot do seems to lead to a bunch of bad attitudes in forum and in game.

So yeah. It’s literally a conspiracy theory and it deserves to be called out as such.

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1338

Most of us that are seen in these threads as “defending” the MM actually have very serious concerns with the MM. I actually have a very long paper on my concerns and solutions to it posted on Reddit. I know Kaawumba also has concerns. I’d be surprised if Anfanee didn’t though I don’t know what it is.

However, our concerns assume that the MM is how Blizzard says it is. Either they are telling the truth or they are lying and there’s no reason for anyone to play the game anymore as it’s basically an abusive relationship.

No changes are going to be made when people have complaints about the MM that aren’t grounded in fact. Blizzard can’t remove a “handicapping” system that doesn’t exist.

Furthermore, when people are told that they can blame the system for bad teammates rather than focusing on their own game play that creates a toxic environment. It not only confirms a person’s tendency to scapegoat (sometimes you do get bad teammates, it’s true) but it makes it seem like it’s part of a system that forces them to lose.

When people have no feeling of agency over their game they do all sorts of things like throw, grief, etc.

That’s why I’m so against threads like these. I truly believe that they are part of the problem and not at all part of a solution.

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1339

The entire basis of your accusation that we are “conspiracy theorists” relies on us believing that Blizzard is lying to us. I don’t believe Cuthbert has said Blizzard is lying, rather we are interpreting their explanation differently than other people.

Example: Blue posts have said “the matchmaker just tries to find fair matches to put you in” - we interpret that differently than you and others and that interpretation isn’t far fetched. This thread is about Cuthbert taking his interpretation of that post and saying why he thinks it is not a good way for the matchmaker to work. It’s really not as insane as you think, it’s just different than what you believe.

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1340

This is just a starter, but you may want to go to the original post and read it again. (Btw, Cuthbert literally says it’s “covert”, which I didn’t remember until I just saw it, lul.)

Now, if you want streaks to count more again or PBSR to go away or groups to be treated differently or smaller SR ranges to be allowed, those are legitimate discussions to have.

But this whole

thing is based on the idea that Blizz has your MMR but it also knows how “good” you are within that MMR bracket.

That’s the conspiracy theory. Not that there will be a variety of MMR values on each team, averaged out to be equal (or a similar model). He’s misusing “handicap”. There is very specifically not a handicap, which would allow people of two widely variant skills to compete and even if one “loses” they “win”, so that I could go against a GM and if I only had a KDA of .5 then I would win because it was expected to be .4.

It’s that somehow they put “bad” players on your “good” team.

That’s why he calls it handicapping and not simply making even teams. Handicapping implies that a benefit is intentionally given to a lower skilled player…here by putting a “good” player on their team.

No. As far as Blizz knows you are all the same skill, plus or minus the uncertainty factor. To believe otherwise is a conspiracy theory.

2 Likes
1341

You and I agree here that the above statement is a conspiracy theory, although we probably disagree on the likelihood that the above statement is true. I actually think it’s possible (to be clear, I do not believe it is true, but I think it is possible/plausible).

Maybe I have a problem with your “conspiracy theory” statement because it lumps every person who thinks something is broken with the matchmaker into a group of people that are typically thought of as insane and delusional, and I find that a bit unfair in an open discussion. I think the matchmaker is broken but don’t believe there is anything nefarious going on at all, I think it’s just a bad system with unintended consequences.

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1342

Well, I think there’s something broken with the matchmaker. Namely in how it attempts to find 12 people to play together rather than making teams to play together. Seems subtle, I know, but they do a great job of finding evenly skilled players and doing it quickly but don’t even try to build and maintain coherent teams.

I think it does it’s intended job marvelously.

I just disagree that it’s intended job is what is good for this type of game.

And given the complaints…don’t you think if they manipulate MMR to get people to play more, they’re doing a pretty crappy job of it?

I’ve posted it before, but ALL the conspiracy theories have at their core the belief that there is your MMR and then there is the rank Blizzard somehow knows you to belong. Forced win rate, handicapping, rigged matches, etc., they all follow the same formula as all conspiracy theories, which is that random human behavior is modeled by the conspiracy theorist as deliberate manipulation by powerful people.

No, man. It’s just humans being humans. Humans are horrible people. You don’t need Blizz to manipulate the system to get people to play poorly on your team, people will do that on their own.

We can have LOTS of discussions regarding all sorts of aspects of the MM that are suboptimal, but the ONE thing it tries to do, find your average skill and match you with people of the same average skill, it does really well.

It’s just that people want it to do more than that. I don’t disagree.

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1343

Here’s a real life scenario…

On another account I played serious, shot up to mid plat - over 300 SR over a week.

And then, clearly, the MMR system thought I was too high as far as it was concerned - regardless of the effort I put into it. I’ve played since nearly the beginning, so my average is probably hard to move. .

All of a sudden, as if a switch was turned on, I was placed on teams that got blown out… EVERYTIME. Nowhere near competitive. I dropped 300SR in 2 days.

I healed… I flexed… I swapped… I tried. It didn’t matter. The teams were so blatantly unbalanced there was no winning most matches.

So however it is they do MMR, it’s an anchor around your legs that sits you at a rank. If you get below it, it gives you better teams. If you get too high above it, it screws you with sub-optimal players.

2 years in, it’s clear why people are moving to Fortnite. Overwatch is still one of the funnest games to play… But if you’re serious about it, it’s going to frustrate more than one enjoys it.

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1344

Yeah, against what a lot of people think, i feel the same.

I’d rather have like 10 points for a win or loss, and 15 up for grabs based on stats.

People say that would cause everyone to run around trying to get stats only.

I think in most situations, that’s what we’d want anyway.

You’re not getting very good stats, off playing 1v6. Stick with the team, stay alive, get as much healing, damage done as you can.

I feel like that’s what players are doing anyway.

So, why punish the individual for the random person who’s throwing or getting SWATted?

If you’re almost always one of the top 3 players in the entire match, win or lose, i think you should rank up.

Doesn’t mean you have to get on Bastion and shoot for the most damage, or play like an idiot trying for stats. It won’t work.
The game has ways of comparing you to other Bastions in your rank.
The game has ways of looking at Mercy stats and seeing who’s great or terrible.

I think for the most part people would just play the same game they usually do, assuming they’re always on one of their mains trying to win. If they do well, i don’t think they should be punished for the attack torb with no time ever on torb.

Also, what UltraLucio describes above is the EXACT thing i’ve seen over and over for two years. When you win and then a switch is flipped, and you earn the worst teammates ever until that SR is taken away. It’s not that you reached your skill ceiling at all. It’s the game placing the hot player with the coldest player(s) it can find. It’s so ridiculously obvious when it happens that i’m surprised anyone still plays.

Actually, i think this is the sole problem. Us conspiracy theorists don’t believe that Blizzard singled us out, and is purposely holding us back. It’s not so personal.
It’s just the simple idea that, if you win a lot, you earn worse teammates. You might be one of the hottest current players within 200 SR currently playing the game. So, they balance you out with one of the coldest players. Well, that’s just not fair. That’s punishing you for winning. Handicapping the match against you. And yes, it works the other way around. Forced winning streaks. Forced losing streaks. Streaks streaks streaks. 9 seasons worth of watching the switch get flipped, up and and down. So obvious.

1345

Isn’t that the whole point of basically everything?

Why should you advance if you are not getting better?

Would you really want comp to be “most grind = highest rank” not “most skill = highest rank”

Sure maybe the MMR calculation needs tweaks but removing it is a big mistake imho.

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1346

yeah but coderwatch reads stats, gamesense is not in any stat, teamwork is not in any stat, toxicity is not in any stat, teammates are not in your stats, time invested is not in your stats, consistency is not in your stats

don’t fool yourself

all this means is that there are people with similar stats in those ranks as yours.

you know i was there too, i had tools like this predict my stats as 3.3k 3.5k etc. but then i played with diamonds and nope they were clearly better than me. all i took from this is, i can get there too. not that i deserve to be there

this entitled opinion alone shows you belong into your rank

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