Blizzard has ALREADY said he is preforming ok compared to other heroes.
He has a really good pick rate, both in low ranks, top500, and everywhere in between - remember DPS has a LOT of heroes, I am pretty sure his pick rate is above the DPS average.
He is doing extremely well in top500, so obviously isn’t lacking impact in the current meta.
There has been a lot of feedback saying Genji was too strong, and needed nerfing, they are unlike to return there.
Character identity isn’t tied to being over powered.
Context matters: While Blizzard may have stated that Genji is performing well compared to other heroes, it is important to consider the specific context in which they made that statement. Game balance is a complex and dynamic process, and factors such as recent patches, changes in the meta, and player feedback can all impact a hero’s performance. Just because Genji is performing well currently does not necessarily mean he is perfectly balanced, as the balance of the game can shift over time.
Pick rate can be misleading: While Genji may have a high pick rate in various ranks, it is important to look beyond just the numbers. A high pick rate could indicate that Genji is being picked often, but it does not necessarily mean he is balanced. It is possible that Genji’s high pick rate is due to other factors such as player preferences, familiarity with the hero, or perceived effectiveness in the current meta, rather than being indicative of a well-balanced hero.
Top 500 performance may not represent the overall player base: While Genji may be performing well in the top 500 ranks, it is a small percentage of highly skilled players who may have different strategies and coordination compared to the majority of players. Balancing a hero solely based on top 500 performance may not take into account the experiences of the broader player base, which includes players of varying skill levels and playstyles.
Feedback may not always be representative While feedback from players is valuable, it may not always provide an accurate assessment of a hero’s balance. Feedback can be subjective and influenced by personal biases, playstyle preferences, and individual experiences. Just because there has been feedback claiming that Genji is too strong does not necessarily mean that it reflects the overall state of the hero’s balance.
Blizzard’s commitment to tying heroes closely to their “heroic fantasy” is evident in their game design decisions, as seen with Reinhardt’s passive ability to take less knockback. This was implemented to align with players’ perception of a 700-pound German crusader being booped around like a feather, which felt incongruous with his identity as a mighty warrior. Similarly, if Genji’s identity as a fast-killing agile assassin is not reflected in his gameplay, it would go against Blizzard’s philosophy of aligning heroes with their intended fantasy. Balancing Genji’s power level to better match his character identity would not only make gameplay more coherent, but also enhance the overall enjoyment and immersion of players in the game.
Right, but the people who are looking at the stats, ARE saying he is doing fine. It is just a very vocal minority on the forums who think otherwiser.
As a measure against your 2.? “Low pick rate”
I think it isn’t misleading to say “having a good pick rate, obviously means he doesn’t have a low pick rate”
True, but Blizzard has already stated he is doing ok across the ranks.
Which is why Blizzard uses pick and win rates to measure how well he is doing, and that is OK.
Right, but that doesn’t mean making a hero OP because his mains are sad that they are not one of the top heroes like they have been for most of the games release.
" if Genji’s identity as a fast-killing agile assassin is not reflected in his gameplay, it would go against Blizzard’s philosophy of aligning heroes with their intended fantasy."
He still has that.
Basically, The points you made at the start ARE good points, the problem is you think Genji actually fails on them, when Blizzard has made it absolutely clear he doesn’t.
While pickrate is often used as a gauge of a hero’s popularity and performance, it can be misleading when viewed across all ranks in Overwatch. Genji’s pickrate may vary significantly across different ranks, with statistically low pickrate in high elo play and higher pickrate in lower elos. This indicates that his performance may not be as effective at higher skill levels, where players are more skilled in countering Genji’s abilities and playstyle. Therefore, solely relying on pickrate to evaluate Genji’s performance may not provide a comprehensive picture of his impact in high-level play. It is crucial to consider the specific context of different skill levels when assessing a hero’s balance, and high elo pickrate should be taken into account to ensure a fair and accurate evaluation of Genji’s effectiveness in the game.
Blizzard’s statement about Reinhardt’s high winrate in GM during Season 1 may not accurately reflect his overall balance. It’s important to consider that Reinhardt’s winrate may have been inflated by a small group of highly skilled players who were exceptionally proficient with him, artificially increasing his win-to-loss ratio. This phenomenon can skew the perception of a hero’s performance and potentially mislead developers into thinking a hero doesn’t need buffs or adjustments. It’s crucial to look beyond winrate data and consider other factors such as hero complexity, team composition, and overall gameplay dynamics when evaluating a hero’s balance. Relying solely on winrate without accounting for player skill and other contextual factors may not provide an accurate assessment of a hero’s performance and can potentially hinder necessary adjustments to ensure fair and balanced gameplay for all players.
My previous point.
Genji’s identity as an agile and deadly assassin has been significantly impacted by the combination of his nerfs and the buffs to other heroes, particularly supports, to counter high burst damage and dive DPS. These changes have resulted in Genji being unable to dive in and out quickly to secure kills, which was once a defining characteristic of his playstyle. Moreover, many heroes in the support roster now counter Genji’s entire existence, making it incredibly challenging for him to effectively fulfill his role as an assassin. This drastic shift in Genji’s gameplay dynamics has essentially massacred his character identity, rendering him less viable and less enjoyable to play for those who appreciate his original design.
No, i no longer consider my previous points were well made, i think they are flawed and need a bit more details.
While they may claim that Genji is performing well based on data, it’s important to acknowledge that data can be skewed due to various factors. Balancing decisions may also be influenced by catering to the casual audience or the exceptional skills of a few specialists who artificially inflate stats. This means that the perceived success of Genji may not accurately reflect his actual performance in the game. It’s crucial to consider the nuances and potential biases in the data presented by Blizzard and not solely rely on it to evaluate Genji’s state. Taking a more critical and nuanced approach to analyzing Genji’s performance is necessary to ensure that his true potential as an agile and deadly assassin is fully realized, and that any balancing decisions are based on a fair and accurate assessment of his gameplay dynamics.
But still pretty high, just not as high as in low ranks. I would absolutely guess he is above the DPS average.
But not ignore that the hero is doing well.
But the point is he is still doing well in both. If you are right, then he will drop at some point, but given that has never happened… It isn’t likely to happen now.
Given the drop in amount of stuns and dropping an off tank made him CRAZY strong, they had to bring him down to average for heroes.
That is a good thing.
Which he is.
Right, but it is ALSO important to acknowledge that people have a lot of biases, and using data is a good way around that.
Genji players have gotten use to the hero being one of the highest picked hero thoughout the entire of overwatches existence. Balance will look like a massive nerf to them.
But you also have to balance that against people who have to fight against him. How it was balanced was that he had trouble getting to the backline to fight them. With that removed, they had to balance him more around the fight once he got there.
Which means making the supports a harder fight for him. He still has the upper hand, but just not as much of an upper hand as he used to.
Blizzard’s lack of transparency in sharing data on hero performance makes it difficult to ascertain Genji’s true state. While they may selectively release data for balance reasons, such as recent nerfs to Cassidy, there is limited information available to assess Genji’s performance objectively. However, from personal experience across multiple ranks, it is evident that Genji’s pickrate is low among ranks higher than Diamond. Even in high Masters, where only the most skilled specialists play, Genji fails to be a preferred choice for specific scenarios. This lack of widespread utility and low pickrate in higher ranks strongly suggests that Genji is currently weak and not fulfilling his intended role as an agile and deadly assassin. It is crucial for Blizzard to provide more transparency in data sharing and address Genji’s weaknesses to ensure that he can be a viable and impactful hero in all skill levels of the game.
Genji’s current success in the dive meta may be misleading, as stats can be artificially inflated. While he fits well into the current meta and synergizes with optimal compositions, this does not necessarily mean that he is a strong hero overall. In fact, it could be argued that his effectiveness is highly dependent on the composition he is played in, and that his weak points are masked when paired with a good comp. This kind of reliance on specific compositions to make a hero viable is not a sustainable or healthy way to balance a hero.
As a player, it can be frustrating to feel like the success of your hero depends heavily on the cooperation of others. Players should be able to make meaningful impact with their hero choice regardless of the specific comp being played. Heroes should be balanced in a way that allows players to have agency and impact in the game without solely relying on their teammates.
Furthermore, recent announcements of extreme buffs to heroes like Brig and Moira, who are known counters to Genji, suggest that his viability may be further diminished. Even the most skilled Genji specialists may struggle against heroes that heavily counter him. This imminent drop in Genji’s effectiveness raises legitimate concerns about the long-term viability of Genji as a hero.
Genji’s nerfs have severely diminished his effectiveness in higher skill tiers, where teamwork and coordination are critical. Genji players now heavily rely on their team to create opportunities for them to make an impact, and this can lead to frustration and a sense of helplessness when playing the hero. In contrast, Tracer has maintained her viability and impact in the game despite being a powerful threat, indicating an imbalance in the treatment of these two heroes.
The discrepancy in treatment between Genji and Tracer raises concerns about the fairness of hero balance decisions. If Tracer can remain impactful without being overly reliant on her team, then it is reasonable to expect similar treatment for Genji. The fact that Tracer receives less complaints may be due to her playstyle being less accessible or appealing to a wider audience, leading to a lower volume of feedback.
He is not.
Data-driven balance decisions may not be effective in achieving balanced gameplay, as Blizzard tends to prioritize low ranks over higher ranks, resulting in distortions caused by skill discrepancies. When considering Genji’s performance in higher elos, it is evident that he has suffered a significant decline and often requires a pocket or a nano boost to be viable, which is not a healthy state for a hero. Balancing should not solely rely on data
Genji’s ability to overpower supports is limited to specific heroes like Zenyatta who are universally weak to dive heroes. When facing heroes like Baptiste and Ana, Genji is easily outdueled and crippled in fights. Most of Genji’s duels are skill-based matchups, with none of them being in his favor unless the opponent is specifically weak to his category of heroes.
This leads to the issue of risk-to-reward ratio. Genji is an incredibly high-risk hero who constantly dives into the backline, often taking on 1v5 situations and putting himself at constant risk just to engage at his effective range. However, his risk-to-reward ratio is not higher, and in fact, may be even lower, compared to heroes like Cassidy who have a low risk but high reward ratio. This lack of balance in Genji’s risk-to-reward ratio further supports the argument that he is currently weak and in need of adjustments to achieve better gameplay balance. If Genji does not have an upper hand in engagements at his effective range, it indicates an imbalance in his current state of balance.
Given he is still played a reasonable amount, across the ranks, I would say he isn’t exactly hurting.
It is down to almost regular DPS levels.
How often do you see him played on the other team? it is more than 1 in 8 matches, which is the average DPS matchup. You don’t notice because you EXPECT him in every second match.
Which is why he is still highly represented in top500, which I note ANYONE can look at.
You can go look.
I think I know why you are finding him hard.
Anyway Blizzard LITERALLY had to call out the Genji mains for constantly saying their hero was garbage when it was still good, and all the stats showed it.
He has a good pick rate, and unmirrored win rate, and IF he has a problem where he falls out of use, they will buff him.
But don’t expect them to do so while he is doing fine.
In my experience, encountering a Genji in my high Masters account is a rarity, occurring only once every 10 games. Similarly, in my high Grandmaster account, I encounter a Genji only once every 20 games. This observation is notable because it is uncommon to face other Grandmaster level Genji players, indicating that Genji may be less prevalent in higher ranks due to his current state of balance.
you have taken my argument out of context to skew it to your favour, very unorthodox.
Blizzard has not explicitly called out Genji mains, and their communication on the topic has been largely evasive and silent. In recent statements, they briefly mentioned Genji in a stream, discussing potential changes to shift his power from blade to shurikens, but quickly moved on without further elaboration. It’s important to note that there has been no direct accusation or targeting of Genji mains by Blizzard. It is not accurate to claim otherwise.
Oh, so their comment about Genji mains sometimes being dramatic about balance changes were not about Genji mains?
If you go back though my post history, you will see that #1, I’ve actually been in favor of power shifting him for high ranked play.
and #2 I don’t think it will happen, AND he won’t get buffed while he dominates low ranked play.
Which is also why I don’t think he will be buffed.
I however ALSO think a lot of Genji mains pick him because he is easy in low ranked play, and when his skill goes up, they leave. But they also have the largest voice in his future, since that is where most of his players are.
However, I also know he is still one of the most picked heroes in the game, and yes, falls off after plat, but that is 80% of the playerbase there.
He is doing well overall, so they won’t change him. Because they would break low ranked play if they did.
So you have a mix, a bunch of people who play him really well, and give him good top500 stats.
You have a hero which is way strong in low ranked play, where the new players end up.
In the mid ranks he is fine.
Why would they change that?
Do you really think they would nerf doublejump to give him better damage?
Your statement seems to be misleading on two fronts. Firstly, you implied that Blizzard directly stated that Genji mains were mistaken and that Genji is still viable, but there is no evidence of such statements from Blizzard.
The statement that Genji is performing well overall is based solely on data, which may be skewed due to various factors such as specialists and rank inflation. This means that the claim of Genji’s overall performance being good should be taken with caution, as it may not accurately reflect his actual state in high-level gameplay. It’s important to consider other factors, such as hero proficiency and skill level, when evaluating a hero’s performance rather than relying solely on data that may not paint the complete picture.
what significance does it hold if your points are found to be invalid?
The notion that Genji dominates lower-ranked play is a fallacy. In reality, skilled players are the ones who dominate lower-ranked play, often due to Genji’s decreased viability in higher elos. It is possible that many Genji players have fallen into lower ranks as a consequence of this diminished viability at higher levels of play. Thus, attributing Genji’s dominance in lower ranks solely to his inherent strength is an oversimplification that fails to consider the broader context of player skill and hero viability across different ranks.
While ease of play can certainly influence hero pick rates in lower ranks, it’s not the sole determining factor. If it were, Reaper would likely have an all-time high pick rate in lower ranks due to his relative simplicity. However, this is not the case, indicating that other factors such as hero viability, effectiveness in the current meta, and player preferences also play significant roles in hero selection. Therefore, suggesting that Genji’s dominance in lower ranks is solely due to his ease of play is an invalid point that oversimplifies the complex dynamics of hero selection in Overwatch.
Genji’s performance, particularly in high elo gameplay, has seen a significant decline, with his viability being greatly reduced. While he may still be considered viable in low to mid elo, this should be viewed as the bare minimum for a hero’s state. Catering the game’s balance to the lower ranks, where Genji may still have some effectiveness, would be counterproductive as it would likely lead to imbalances in higher elo gameplay, where skilled players are better equipped to handle heroes like Genji. Therefore, it’s important to consider the overall performance of a hero, especially in higher elos, when evaluating their balance and not solely rely on their viability in lower ranks.
they literally gave him 30 ammo… decreased it back down to 24 because he was to good because of the dps passive and didnt give him back 30 ammo WHEN HE HAD IT DURING 6V6 AND HE SUCKED
The argument that people are “forced” to take Moira because of Genji is not accurate. In low-ranked play, Moira is often picked regardless of whether there is a Genji or not. The lack of data on Genji’s pickrate in lower ranks makes it difficult to draw conclusions about his impact on Moira’s popularity.
Furthermore, It’s possible that his pickrate in lower ranks might be as low as what we see in Masters to GM, considering that Masters to Grandmaster, considering they have a much smaller player base to work with in higher-ranked play we can basically manually analyze data, the wide player base in lower ranks makes it difficult to obtain comprehensive and reliable data. Therefore, claiming that Genji is solely responsible for Moira’s pickrate in lower ranks lacks substantial evidence.
It’s worth mentioning that the ease of playing a hero does not necessarily correlate with their pickrate. Reaper, for instance, is often considered an easy hero to play, yet he sees fewer picks than Genji. This underscores the fact that pickrate is influenced by a multitude of factors, including player preferences, meta trends, and individual playstyles. By dismissing this crucial point and attempting to steer the argument in a different direction, you are neglecting the validity of my argument and manipulating the discussion to favor your stance.
Your argument is flawed because it fails to acknowledge that the issue of DPS Moiras in Overwatch 2 extends beyond Genji. Many players complain about this phenomenon, indicating that it’s not limited to Genji alone. Additionally, your argument overlooks the fact that players can improve their support play to counter Genji effectively. In fact, most supports have tools to deal with Genji, and skilled players who understand the game mechanics can exploit Genji’s weaknesses. Blaming Genji for the issue of DPS Moiras ignores the larger context of gameplay and the potential for players to adapt and improve their strategies.
Your claim that Genji’s pickrate drop is solely due to one reason is an oversimplification. In reality, there are multiple factors that can affect pick rates, such as changes in the game’s meta, balance adjustments, player preferences, and other variables. By cherry-picking one factor that supports your argument and ignoring the complexity of the situation, your argument lacks depth and objectivity. It’s important to consider all relevant factors thoroughly to gain a complete understanding of the issue and have a constructive discussion.
I didn’t blame Genji for DPS Moira. Point to where I did that. I said she has a high pick rate because he does in lower ranks. Given Ana was the most picked support in low ranks in OW1, it shouldn’t be a surprise the change has happened given how much more Genji is picked there now.
It isn’t. None of the other things kick in where they drop him.
changes in the game’s meta - They are plat… the meta doesn’t extend down that far.
balance adjustments - They are dropping him in plat, the SAME patch is there for silver as it is for diamond.
player preference - they suddenly don’t enjoy Genji around Plat? What changed their preference? could it be that it starts to require skill?
Seriously, they stop playing him around Plat because people can shoot double jumping targets consistently, and that is the only method of Genji they know how to play.
You also have the devs saying he is strong.
They are not going to buff him while they think he is strong, and that the Genji players are perhaps not the best group of people to ask how strong the hero is.