Why does everyone think Brig ruined overwatch

General Discussion
292

Nine out of ten times, if you showed me any examples of a flanking Brigitte winning 1v3, I could point out several mistakes that the enemy team made the sealed their fate.

All that meant is that Tracer couldn’t “commit” to anything until Brigitte wasted her repair pack. Tracer had to play back at about 10 feet (still plenty to deal damage with) and basically threaten Brigitte’s back line enough that Brigitte used her Pack to save someone in danger of being one-shot.

After that, Tracer was free to kill any other squishy on the team, or even go for a stick on Brigitte herself with all the Ult charge she built up.

I’m not talking about “opposite opinions”. I’m talking about the same contradictory opinion.

“Blizzard was crazy when they introduced Brigitte, but they were 100% right when they nerfed her.”

Blizzard’s decisions can’t only be “correct” when it’s convenient. If they made a mistake when they introduced Brigitte, it’s also possible they made mistakes when they nerfed her. You can’t have it both ways.

Except more characters were played AFTER Brigitte was introduced than before. Before Brigitte’s introduction, every game was pretty much Dive.

AFTER Brigitte, team comps had more variety. From May to late June, you saw Dive comps, Bunker comps, Rein/Zarya comps, and so on.

GOATS is what destroyed DPS. And GOATS can only be blamed on Brigitte because she was the final piece it needed to become perfect.

You realize you’re being hypocritical, right? You started this conversation saying “I’m right and if you disagree you iz stoopid”.

293

Making zero mistakes isn’t hard, though. For good players, anyway.

Outplaying those characters means either surviving them or eliminating their value. If Roadhog is trying to duel you as Mercy, and you survive to continue doing your job, you outplayed him. If Pharah is trying to kill Junkrat and he avoids her long enough to kill her team, he outplayed her.

Nice attempt at strawmanning, though.

294

…sssooo in your logic if someone makes a mistake then they must only do mistakes?
You sayin one cant do mistake and correct them?

You sayin if i disagree with something someone does then i have to disagree with everything they do?

What is logic i dont even

What other character requires absolutely 0 mistakes to take down while also being really forgiving themselves?

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295

Yet it happens time and time again in OWL.

It wasn’t my straw man it’s your willful ignorance.

Let me spell it out for you.

You can kill a Roadhog with Mercy if you make zero mistake.
You can kill a Pharah with Junkrat if you make zero mistake.

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296

You do realize that even OWL players make mistakes? Saying “making zero mistakes isn’t hard” is probably the most far-from-reality statement I have read.

That implies:

  • You never die
  • You never miss
  • You never misuse an ability/ultimate
  • You never feed

Making zero mistakes is impossible.

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297

I see. I can’t argue with you if you think that’s the case. But I’m one of those morons.

I can’t post links. But look up Kongdoo Panthera’s Brig in Volskaya industry. Went in with rally, killed a widow pocketed by mercy. Winston came back to peel and see what happened. But seeing your response, you’d say what was widow doing in low ground? Yes. She should have stayed in roof top having tea while waiting for enemy team to show their heads.

Another one: Kabaji has a clip where he goes in without thinking in lijiang tower against GM players ( I haven’t played the game above 4.1k so they must be pretty bad because 4 of them couldn’t kill a brig. I should be top 500).

Tracers couldn’t commit to one target? I guess top 500 Tracer mains like Dafran was really bad to focus target because he basically became a widow main at one point lel or Sinatraa became a Zarya otp in OWL because he was bad at focusing target while playing tracer and making name under that character. Of wait Soon also couldn’t play Tracer.

I don’t know dude/dudette everyone is really bad and needs to get good.

298

No. They’re just throwing/trolling. They need to get better at counters. Why couldn’t they play 4 dps to counter goats you know?

299

No. I’m saying that you can’t argue “X person said/did this” on its own as evidence that something is correct when that person also has a track record of making mistakes.

It’s as possible that they’re wrong as it is that they’re right.

Depending on your definition of “forgiving”, Tracer and Widowmaker.

There’s a difference between making mistakes and making calculated risks. At high level/top level play, the most common reason players lose a 1v1 duel is because they make gambles that don’t pay off.

Everyone is human, and they make mistakes. But when those mistakes happen, they deserve to die for them. If you’re fighting an enemy Widowmaker and you miss her head, you deserve to die–but you may not because the enemy Widow might make a mistake herself and miss. That’s not you playing well…that’s you surviving because the enemy player made the same mistake you did.

Brigitte’s main strength is that she can punish any small mistake heavily. If you’re asking if that’s unfun to play against, then sure. If you’re asking if that’s “fair”, then I say yes. Learn from that mistake or die.

I’m not addressing the earlier parts of your post because you pretty much answered your own question.

Anyway, online ladder is a crazy beast even in Top 500. Because Brigitte’s biggest asset in PUGs is how often she goes completely ignored. In coordinated games, especially at pro level, Brigitte was easier to deal with because half the BS she tries in random ladder gets blown up.

Besides that, Tracer still saw respectable playtime before GOATS became a thing. In OWL, she was still the second-most played DPS (after Widowmaker) and her online pickrates never dipped into “terrible” level online, either. Apologies for the long link, but here was Tracer’s GM Pickrate in Season 11, in August, well after the Double Sniper had begun:

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59af2189c534a58c97bd63b3/1534789074110-6451OR4OTX1H61DJ25N2/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kKmwKR0aZIo5vU-fVPElWsoUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcVM2RN4Xjn8O8GZIuXbtWr9iIYNJfFqO4ZjHE5fYp41at0T7COba7w3kDCuf8Q1NN/Ranked+tier+list+season+11+Overwatch+GrandMaster+August+2018.jpg?format=1000w

(Again, until GOATS.)

Also, to be completely forthcoming: I can’t discuss the reason any individual player would play or not play their favorite character because we would need to also account for personal factors like stream viewership, personal biases, etc. The only things I can look at are what the data shows.

300

that wasnt my only point?

“forgiving” usually means you can make a few mistakes and still perform reasonably well.
Tracer and Widowmaker are among the most unforgiving heroes in the game, you either play them right or dont play them at all.

Also, tracer doesnt prevent supports from being played like brig essentially prevented any non sniper dos from being played while also making all tanks miserable.

Also i still laugh at the idea that you think “oh you can counter her, you just have to play 100% perfect”.
I shouldnt have to explain that 100% performance all the time is something not even pros can do. Or that brig essentially halves the effectivness of sustain dps by merely being on the field.
You are so disconmected from reality it’s not even funny.

I’m also gonna add one thing: meta in owl takes a bit to take hold.
Even with busted brig they still played dive mostly because they were still figuring her out and at those levels they didnt feel like betting on a new character.
Amd stage 4, when brig was included, started seeing the double sniper meta that was replaced by goats the moment grav dragon was nerfed

301

“The devs said/did this” was one of the things you listed.

The point is, them doing it or saying it can’t hold up.

Both Tracer and Widowmaker are two of the most difficult characters in the game to kill or punish, to the degree that they were UNSTOPPABLE at pro level.

They’re hard to use offensively, but compared to other characters they can make several mistakes and emerge unscathed. Tracer having low health doesn’t mean anything unless she actually gets hit.

K.

As I just proved above, Brigitte didn’t make non-snipers unplayable. Genji and Tracer were still the third and fourth-most played DPS in GM during double sniper meta, four months after Brigitte’s introduction.

In fact, both had a higher pickrate than Brigitte.

302

ok, then the best tracers and genjis are full of crap when they say you are throwing if you play tracer into a brig.
K.

oh i thought i had imagined double sniper amd goats, silly me

303

You said it, not me.

I just posted the hard data, so again…you said it, not me.

304

because shes a mistake of nature and mankind

305

No, if a calculated risk ends up bad for your team it’s a mistake. If not then it’s a clutch play.

Pros make mistakes all the time. Be that one missed shot, one wasted cooldown, or one positioning mistake.

Casters will tell you when they make mistakes.

Pros doing VODs tell you when they make mistakes.

Might wanna stop pretending OWL plays perfect for no purpose other than to make some kind of stupid argument that Brigitte did not have garbage design.

2 Likes
306

Okay, we could debate the Hindsight Bias of this point all day, but I’ll avoid that and just say this:

The same argument applies to “mistakes” against Brig, then. If you decide to play Hanzo on low ground and focus on trying to break Reinhardt’s shield to the point that you don’t notice Brigitte , then you made a “calculated risk” if it worked and a “mistake” if it didn’t.

Either way, you deserve whichever fate (victory or defeat) you gambled with.

307

No, earlier you said Brigitte makes mistakes unforgiving. “One missed shot, one wasted cooldown, or one positioning mistake and you’re dead”

Missed shots. Wasted cooldown (even ult) or positioning error are all common mistakes in OWL.

So get out with that “not hard to not make mistake” non-sense. Such an absurd argument to justify Brigitte’s design? Ridiculous.

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308

Umm not touching anything else because it has already been touched but this statement doesn’t make any sense.

Walking back a mistake isn’t also making a mistake. It’s possible to get one thing wrong and get one thing right. Which has happened many times. Sometimes you try things and it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes you try something say for instance like buffing Reaper lifesteal and it makes balance terrible for low ranks of the game and does nothing at the higher ranks of the game.

Brigitte was made both to hamper dive in Esports and to tamper the lesser skilled playerbase who claimed that flankers have no counter. The attempt was obviously made with Moira and went into overdrive with Brigitte. It was 100% a mistake because we saw what the character did to the game, broke a bunch of mechanics. Literally made a wide swath of the roster useless or open to exploitation in a way that no other character has done to date.

It’s shocking people can think these things up and believe they make sense.

309

Oh and I missed this earlier:

Kill =/= outplay.

The most common way to outplay someone is to deny them value.

I also said “they deserve to lose if they make mistakes” and “Brigitte’s strength is heavily punishing small mistakes”. If you want to win, you have to be mistake free or make less of them than the enemy team. But you can’t rely on the enemy team making mistakes to make up for yours.

You have to play as if making any mistakes whatsoever will result in your death.

As I said earlier, to beat Brigitte, you have to be as close to perfect as possible because she WILL mess you up if you don’t. But I find this fair, because if you don’t, Brigitte is easy to deal with.

Yes, I’ve lost duels to Brigitte all the time because I didn’t have Coach Gun available or because I missed my headshots (my mistakes). However, I do either of those things right, I can either escape Brigitte or kill her easily.

310

This above is why Brigitte was obviously a mistake, because good game design means you shouldn’t have one character who forces near perfect play who is also an easy to play character.

Because if you truly believe in this logic then Brigitte wasn’t even necessary as a character to begin with, all the support mains who cried about Tracer and Genji should have stepped up their own play and tried not to make mistakes. Flankers had the advantage against supports in duels but the imbalance that is Brigitte versus most squishy characters was unseen before.

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311

That’s not true. There have been plenty of examples of those types of characters in videogames, done successfully.

They’re typically referred to as “Skill Gate” or “Skill Check” characters. You HAVE to demonstrate a certain level of skill to counter said character, otherwise you die.