Dude clearly doesn’t learnt geometry well, let them be. Stupidity at showcase isn’t that bad for amusement either.
Kudos to you to explain to them in a layman’s term tho, I’ll just say angular speed and confuse the crap outta them.
3 Likes
I often find that a lot of people dont really understand 3D projection very well (which is i guess understandable if it’s not really something you’ve spent the time learning) so I tend to try and shy away from describing it that way, even though it kills me a little inside every time I have to. Like it drives me up a wall watching people try to describe pixel skipping (a misnomer itself that I hate) as if the crosshair is actually moving several pixels across the screen in 2D space…
1 Like
Cause he’s in a 
spot and has been for years now.
And it’s not like they can buff him either, cause that’s an indirect nerf to Tanks, who are already in a spot themselves.
Reaper is a side causality of the state of the Tank role.
You’re acting like its equally easy to hit hitscan shots in close range as it is shotgun blasts
1 Like
Is moving across a larger % of your screen in the same period of time not moving faster across your screen?? If Reaper is 20m away walking full speed to the left you will have to move your mouse much less than if he’s moving full speed 10m in front of you. Closer targets that are moving are harder to hit with hitscan shots. This is a fact. It’s only if targets are standing still that they’re easier to hit the closer they are.
Not always. Speed matters. Ball is a big target, but his speed makes him not so easy to hit all the time. A Reaper moving full speed in close proximity while blasting you is much harder to hit with hitscan shots than he is 20m away moving full speed. A larger target is not always easier to hit if they’re moving proportionally faster
2 Likes
what? no! Each hero has an optimal distance (which also depends on the player). The easiest shots with Ashe or Widow are between 20-40/50 meters, anything beyond that (closer or further) becomes increasingly difficult.
Ever tried to scope headshot someone with Widow at close range (5 meters), e.g. a Tracer or Genji jumping around you?
I’ve only recently been able to get hits at that distance, but I’ve lost accuracy at distance because I’ve increased my DPI from 600 to 1000, almost doubling it. and that means I now have the opportunity to hit such shots better, but they aren’t easier than midrange, they’re still very difficult.
But he is also proportionally larger. There is a direct relationship. That means you get an equal % change to perceived motion as you get increased margin of error. You are acting like the you still have to hit just as small a target at both distances, but that is simply not the case.
Sure, ball is harder to hit than other heroes because he moves fast. But that is not what we are talking about. It is all relative. We are comparing Ball to Ball. If he is closer he is easier to hit.
The only exception to that rule would be heroes that are moving past you faster than your reaction time. Think Tracer blink, Genji dash, etc. Those heroes can move behind you and/or out of your field of view faster than you can react. The only time the proximity will make them harder to hit is when they distance allows them to move out of your field of view. But that does not apply to Reaper as he does not have that kind of fast movement ability. And incidentally those same movement abilities negate Reaper’s shots as well.
In fact, all your ‘harder to hit close targets’ claims apply just as much to Reaper as any other hero. In fact, arguably more. Reaper has to aim center of target to have a chance of all his pellets hitting. Heroes like Soldier just have to hit anywhere on the target. Meaning Reaper has to move his mouse just as fast and make sure he is point on accurate to even come close to his theoretical potential.
Scope reduces your field of view. So long as the target is still in your field of view it will always be easier to hit closer.
Also, scope does not apply to most heroes. Certainly not for Soldier, which is who I was comparing to Reaper.
Tracer and Genji have movement abilities that allow them to move out of your field of view instantly, or near instantly. Does not apply to the likes of Reaper. Also, works just as well for them against Reaper as it does against the other hit scan (excluding Cassidy thanks to flash).
Also, I think I need to clarify.
At close range all of the other hit scan do not out perform Reaper.
The idea of Reaper’s design is that he has a really high damage potential but it is compensated for by the spread, making it literally impossible to do his damage potential at any appreciable distance. What you have to also remember is that even at close range against a moving target he also will not get full damage hits, there will virtually always be some pellet missing.
This fundamental design does work* when comparing him to heroes like Ashe or Widow. His damage is higher than theirs by enough that if he does manage to close the distance he can kill them (or other targets) much faster and/or reliably.
*(Note: Ignoring the question of if the of if the trade off is worth it in the larger meta. That is a whole different question that depends on a lot of external variables.)
However, it breaks down when comparing him to heroes like Soldier or Cassidy. Soldier can hit close targets just as easily and is less prone to losing damage to misses (no spread). And his damage output is extremely high. Add in the break points as a factor and you find that he can kill targets (or Reaper) just as fast or even faster than Reaper. Even in situations that are best case for Reaper. And Cassidy’s burst potential with fan at close range is well beyond anything Reaper can do. And flash giving him non-moving targets means Cassidy is more effective killing close range than Reaper.
1 Like
That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that the closer someone is to you, the faster they move across your screen and the harder they are to hit with pinpoint weapons because their larger size does not make up for how much faster they move on your screen. Heroes with spread like Reaper or extreme rapid fire like Tracer/Sombra are not as effected by being in close range because they fire so many bullets for much less damage that even missing quite a few doesn’t matter as much, where missing a few shots on Cassidy or Soldier means you’re missing out on a lot of damage. Do you really think it’s just as easy to snipe someone on Widow 5m in front of her moving full speed as it is for her to snipe someone 30m away from her at full speed? It’s not… the same goes for every hitscan. It’s easier to land consecutive shots on a target 15m away than it is 5 because you aren’t having to adjust your aim as much as you do when they’re closer. The movements are much smaller. Maintaining accuracy with pinpoint weapons is easier at range. This is a fact.
Again, this is not true.
Ball is easier to hit going full speed in one direction 25m away from you than he is going full speed in one direction 10m away from you, reason being because you have to make much larger movements that have to remain accurate in close range because he is moving “Faster” across your screen regardless of if he is a larger target. They are not proportional, he is moving much faster across your screen than he is growing in size as he gets close.
Not arguably more and not just as much either… Reaper is dealing significantly more damage even if he’s missing 1/3 of his pellets in close range than Soldier is in close range unless he’s Godly accurate in the mere seconds (if that) that it takes Reaper to kill him. Soldier has to hit over 13 shots assuming Reaper barely heals at all in the same time that Reaper can 2 or 3 tap him.
There is no debate about it. Reaper has the advantage in close range over hitscans. This is a fact.
It is a direct 1 to 1 ratio. The faster they move relative to your field of view directly corresponds to the relative increase in size. You do not have to hit a pinpoint spot on the target. Any spot on the target still counts as a hit.
Problem is, with high spread damage you are guaranteed to miss shots. The compensation for those guaranteed misses is the faster fire rate and higher potential damage.
What you are not considering is that if you hit anywhere on the hit box with Soldier or Cassidy you get full damage. If you want full damage with Reaper you have to both be really close and hit center of the hit box.
I think I have figured out your problem. You are looking at experiences you have an coming to a conclusion that is missing a key variable.
Typically when shooting at a ball at distance you are at an angle to see more of his travel (such as high ground) or he is trying to travel over a large open area. When he is close he is typically going from one cover to another, diving and rolling out, etc. All very short windows of time. Which is exactly how Ball should attack. But the thing is, those situations are limited windows of time. The long range that you usually see him at are not. You are missing time. And shooting ball in a 2 second window is much harder than shooting him in a 4 or 5 second window. At distance you usually just have more time to anticipate and shoot. Close range you often do not know he is there and have to wait on reaction speed and then aiming, which is harder. But the issue is time. Not range itself. If you have the same time it is still easier to hit him close.
No he is not. Hitting all shots Reaper does 240 dps, Soldier 180 (not including helix). If you take out 1/3 of Reaper’s pellets Reaper would be doing 160 dps.
But, let’s run your scenario:
Reaper fires 20 pellets per shot. Let’s take 1/3 and round up to say he hits with 13 pellets. Each pellet does 6 damage. That means per shot he is doing 78 damage. And every second he fires 2 shots, so 156 damage. And Reaper will be healing 27 health per shot, so 52 heals. Soldier has biotic field, which heals 35 health per second. Reaper fires two shots in that second leaving Soldier having lost 121 health. The third shot still will not kill Soldier, leaving him down 191 health at the 1.5 second mark. It will take the 4th shot to kill Solider.
Okay, now let’s look at what Soldier does in those first three shots. Helix for 120 damage, and 9 shots per second. Let’s give Soldier a 33% miss rate to match the pellet loss (even though Soldier doesn’t have a forced spread. And at that range against a relatively slow moving target like Reaper, hitting all his shots should not be hard. But we are being generous to Reaper. We have 6 shots at 20 damage per shot in the first second and 3 in the following second. So, 9 shots for 180 damage from primary making a total of 300. Reaper has healed 79 health. This leaves Reaper at 29 health meaning it take 2 primary shots to finish him.
So, in that last half second it boils down to whether Reaper gets his last shot off first or Soldier gets 2 of his shots (which take fire faster than 4 per half second). In a real situation with that accuracy for both it could literally go either way. Really it would likely be determined by who fired first. And this is with us erroring on the side of Reaper. We didn’t even factor head shots, which tips the scales in favor of Soldier as Reaper has a larger head box and Reapers spread makes hitting full pellet head shot impossible outside point blank.
In other words: Reaper does not have the advantage in close range over Soldier. That is a fact.
I fully believe Reaper should be better at close range. Right now, mostly due to Soldiers current state, he just isn’t.
1 Like
So many people are missing the point.
The issue isn’t that ranged hitscans are better than heroes such as Reaper at close range.
The problem is that they’re competitive with them at close range while absolutely dominating at longer ranges. If a close range hero is caught by a ranged hitscan at range, they will more than likely just die. If a ranged hitscan is caught at close range, there’s a good chance they’ll get the kill even if it isn’t in their favour.
It’s completely lopsided and one of the reasons why ranged hitscans continue to be hard meta.
4 Likes
You are somehow missing the point or are ignoring it. Reaper hands down has the advantage in close range due to his weapon being a shotgun instead of a Revolver, Pulse Rifle, Repeater Rifle, or Sniper. There is no debate, it’s a fact. If Reaper is losing to hitscan weapons in close range he is getting outplayed. If you’re getting outplayed, you deserve to lose. It’s much easier to hit most of Reapers pellets in close range compared to having the accuracy required to kill Reaper in the same timeframe
They aren’t though.
I don’t see this as a problem. Hitscans are at a disadvantage in close range vs. Reaper. If a Soldier is able to beat Reaper in close range its because he’s a very good Soldier and outplayed him. Should hitscans just lose no matter what even if they’re highly skilled?
If your argument is “why is it fair that Reaper has no chance at long range but hitscans have a chance in close range” I don’t know what to tell you other than the only way to give all heroes the same viability at all ranges is to make Overwatch a cookie cutter game with less unique heroes where they all have access to the same weapons
1 Like
If anything reapers worse matchup is hanzo because he one shots you in your effective range and hanzo will forever be in his effective range against you.
4 Likes
You have not established that and you offer not evidence for that claim. It is empty.
On the other hand, I have provided multiple examples and evidence to the contrary.
Having a shotgun means nothing if you don’t have the damage to back it up. You act like hitting with any pellets gives him full damage. It doesn’t. As I have established Soldier matches or exceeds him even in situations that favor Reaper’s kit.
That is just not true. I have shown it false. If you are in the range to allow Reaper to maintain even a 66% pellet hit rate Soldier would require less aim skill to maintain the same percentage.
Some hit scan are. Not all. Solider matches or exceed Reaper and Cassidy is just straight up better in close range.
I have already demonstrated repeatedly that your claim is false. In close range skill being equal it is a could go either way situation. At anything outside of close range it is massively in Soldier’s favor.
That is a strawman. He was not suggesting all should be the same at all ranges.
If Soldier has a massive advantage at longer range it should not be the even fight it is in close range. Reaper should have a massive advantage in close range.
2 Likes
Ngl when im soldier I feel like reapers are all free kills
But also when im reaper I feel like soldiers are all free kills
Pretty much yes. That’s what happens to short ranged heroes if they have poor positioning and get caught at range. Why should hitscans be any different?
I know. I did say that’s not the point though.
Or rebalancing of ranged hitscans close range capabilities. For example, why does coach gun knockback opponents?
You cant in 1 breath argue that hitscans being competitive at close range is OK while in the same breath say that they should be deleting close ranged heroes with zero counterplay at mid+ ranges. Pick one.
2 Likes
We’ll agree to disagree as apparently we can’t even agree on reality. I will destroy any Soldier as Reaper in close range if they aren’t twice my skill level because the effort required of me to kill Soldier within 10m is much lower than what’s required of Soldier to kill me in the same timeframe. Soldier better run or he’s dead, it’s that simple.
I don’t think one should have to be picked. I don’t see any issue with Hitscans having a fighting chance in close range, and Reaper not having a fighting chance at range. We can agree to disagree.
1 Like
This is Poytheon we are talking about. They can, and they will.
Why not give reaper a high skill ability to be able to outplay hitscans at range then? In the same way hitscans can at close range.
Surely you’re consistent with your argument, right?
1 Like
See above. I in fact do not think it’s a problem that Reaper stands no chance at a distance while Hitscans have a fighting chance in close range if they’re able to land their shots.
Wouldn’t be against it. People have recommended giving him a new ability with a smoke cloud of sorts, which would make distant hitscans unable (or make it more difficult) to shoot him. But, I doubt he’s going to get a new ability before OW2
1 Like
That is what we are saying is absurd. That you are ok with that disproportionality. The fact that you don’t see the problem is the ridiculous position.
1 Like