Where has the skill in supports gone?


#16

If the opinion is based off of false information it can indeed be debunked. Just a general statement.


#17

Actually Mercy’s Bunny hop bug was a result of her rework being introduced onto PTR and her having zero air resistance for a time, allowing you to shift cancel and then hold space for a full momentum boost. This was many months before the movement patch.

Not quite. The bug was fixed in the October Halloween event update, and a few days later they added in an official Bunny Hop feature whereby pressing/holding Spacebar at any point during GA allows you to bunnyhop, and there is also a superjump feature via holding crouch/shift at the same time and using bunnyhop to gain immense vertical height.


#18

Well designed healers benefit from skill in other ways. Like Lucio does a lot more damage if you have good aim.


#19

An opinion can be factually incorrect.

Goes to show you’ve haven’t actually read the thread.


#20

The great thing for Lucio’s shots is that they can do a lot of damage if they connect but they are also a great area denial attack, meaning you spam an area and it deters people from going into it as quickly.


#21

I think most supports are in a really good spot in terms of skill requirement.
Ana feels really good if you learn to play her well and is also fairly well balanced.
Moira also is not that easy, but also not too difficult. She might need a small buff, but other than that she is still fine.
Brigitte is a bit unbalanced, but in my opinion not as easy to play as everyone says.
Zen is just as good as always and needs a lot of skill to play well.
Lucio, while you are right, is also not as easy to play (In my opinion).
The only exception in that is Mercy which needs almost nothing, but one brain cell to be played well. Even if you play her well she still feels like “That’s not enough…”.

You see… Supports will always get the short end of the stick, because they are the heroes which define the Meta at the end of the day.
But i agree with you that the way how Blizzard (or better said Team 4) is handling all supports is just wrong.

They should try to make all viable and fun to play with, as and against. And not that “Now you get the big sword, the other guy had it way to long. We give him a wood stick in the in the meantime.”.

No… You are on a really wrong path if you think that.
E res is solely because of the CD far less skillful than Mass Res. On top of that comes the very situational use of it which always boils down to “Is it save or not?” and nothing more.
Valkyrie is nothing but an easy mode for her base kit. The best description of it is still “Easy mode, afk, pro simulator”.
It can be used in any situation without any thinking and is just the best get out of jail card in the game… nothing more.
About the movement, ignoring Valkyrie, you are not that wrong, but also not right. Yes it is a bit more complex now, but good Mercy player’s already used that small speed boost/rubberband thing back then with Mercy 1.x. Yes it already existed back then, but it was not as strong and way harder to use well.
It’s better now, but also easier to learn.

Mercy is the hero with the lowest skill ceiling and floor of all heroes, thanks to her rework. What you are saying is just wrong.


#22

That’s in terms of damage which will also be capped no matter how much skill is needed. In terms of healing it will never get past a certain point as well because thats how the game is balanced.


#23

That question is answered in the post Sandity quoted. The answer is yes.

This is debunked in that post.

The variety of ways to use Resurrect was reduced to less than a fifth of what it used to be, and that’s looking at numerical values alone.

Not if the tool you add is brain-dead in nature, and actually detracts from the skills required in the hero’s base kit.
Stares at Valkyrie.

Objectively false.

Also objectively false.

A condition that is not limited to one situation, is it?

Because she probably couldn’t keep them alive.

This is also false. Of the handful of ultimates I compared it to at the time, resurrect charged slower on average than:

  • Tactical Visor.
  • DragonBlade.
  • Rocket Barrage.
  • Transcendence.
  • Nano-Boost.
  • Whole Hog.

HI! I’m now part of the conversation. Here are my arguments:


#24

Firstly, I’m not sure you know what objectively means. Having a difference of opinion on something does not make it objectively false.

Secondly, that thread is absolutely made up of opinions occasionally accompanied by cherry-picked stats that leave out the parts that DON’T support your position. For example, stating that mass rez took over five minutes to full charge when sitting still is meaningless without talking about how quickly she could charge it on a regular basis just by healing an average amount before, during, and after team fights. It was, in fact, one of the fastest-charging ults by far in average situations. Anecdotally, I played a lot of Mercy at GM level at the time and it was pretty rare that I didn’t have mass rez up for every single team fight.

Yes, mass rez was ONLY usable in one situation. That’s not variety.
People had to be dead or it did nothing and it was an instant cast ability with no line of sight requirements. Valkyrie is usable at any time and it’s effectiveness is determined ENTIRELY by the skill of the Mercy using it.

If you can’t find an interesting way to use a multi heal/damage beam with hyper-increased mobility and an unlimited ammo pistol all while literally flying to your advantage, that’s a you problem. That’s not a Mercy problem.


#25

Don’t tell anyone that I’m still getting these all the time.

…Please.


#26

I won’t, but you might’ve just said that where everyone can see it. Yeah, I’m glad the burst is still useful to an extent. I just meant that it’s harder to pull off than it used to be. More skill!


#27

The thing is, the max Dmg a DPS can do is just as much capped as the healing of the supports. 76 can’t deal more dmg with one hit than 38 HP max, as much as Ana can’t heal more than ~112 HP max per hit.

And while DPSs mostly only deal Dmg, supports need to take care of way more other stuff as well.
I don’t wan to say that anyone which plays DPSs is not as skillful as support players, but over all the skill ceiling of almost all sups is higher than the one from DPSs.

I think you overlook the issue in your statement. All of that can be done with Mercy without the need to use Valkyrie. Valkyrie makes things just easier, but not more effective. On top of that the outcome of Valkyrie (In terms of E res and the main beam’s) is not at all determined by the Mercy player, but her/his team.
And if it comes to her gun, as i said, Valkyrie only removes thought processes. You don’t need to think about reloading or special positioning. Just fly in to the face of someone and hold LMB. If it get’s too dangerous use your GA to get out on almost all distances.

It’s still a Mercy problem, not a “you” problem. Your opinion might be that Mercy is more skillful in 2.x but the reality says something completely different. I know now some other Mercy players from GM (Titanium is one of them) and a few T500 (Which are still very active) Mercy players as well and they all pretty much agree that she is far less skillful/active now than before. I myself was a Master player with a MMR in GM/500 (with the rework as well) and all i can say is that Mercy is the hero with a skill floor and ceiling at the same level, very far down only because of her changes.


#28

Note: I don’t actually care about Mercy’s state, as long as she’s not dominating the game for 5 months, I’m not getting into it.

Imo Lucio was much better before the global movement changes. He was faster, lighter and momentum felt how it should, and not somehow bring able to turn mid-air just by holding W and looking in a different direction. It was more difficult and required far far more time, effort and concentration to learn Lucio’s wall riding mechanics - but, you didn’t even need to learn them to be good, they were purely for fun and gave Lucio mains more solo-ability if they wanted to.

:frowning:


#29

It seems like we all just have differences in opinion, then. Pre-rework usage statistics showed that Mercy was far less preferable to skilled players than she has been at any point since then. I don’t think that means “reality says something completely different”. My reality (and that of many others) says the complete opposite of what you’re saying. I can’t convince anybody otherwise when there are such strong opinions attached to the subject. I’m just glad the people who make the game agreed with me and made the changes I wanted.


#30

I love the new wallride. Sure it’s easier, but theres a lot more freedom and I think it’s well worth it.

On the other hand, I wish Moira was harder and had a higher skill ceiling.


#31

I wish the same for mercy since 2.0 was a huge step backwards in that regard.


#32

Well, that’s waht opinions are. It’s just trying to explain other opinions and maybe change some of them.

That had a clear reason. Other support heroes just overpowered Mercy back then. That has nothing to do with her skill ceiling/floor. It just means that other sups were just better than her on max efficiency. But after seeing some of them play Mercy back then, i only can say that they never used her properly as well.

Anyway, the fact is that only because they didn’t used her does not say that they considered her as a low skill hero. Both things have nothing to do with each other.

And about the reality thing…
If high level players of one hero say that said hero lost a significant amount of skill requirement to be played properly… That already says a lot. But not only the high rank players says that. I know players from all ranks and all say the same regarding her skill ceiling/floor. And on many community poll a pattern is visible.
Fun, skill and balance polls about her have almost always the same results. Over 50% say that, in all regards, old Mercy was just better. Les than 40% think that Val is better in all regards. (They are not from the forums i may add)
And even some pros which forced that wrong opinion of hide and res went back and said that old Mercy was better as well as some youtubers.

Well… after said people in the dev team went away from other Bilzzard games, these games also became way better according to the communities of those.
And the overall decision making of the dev team in terms of changes to heroes/game balance becomes more and more questionable lately.


#33

The DPS can increase his damage from skill via headshots, therefore the more skill you put into a DPS the more damage you can put in. Looking at healing characters they do maximum something around around half of what a single DPS character doing maximum or less. Ana is the closest thing to skill based healing and she can do a little less then Moira’s level.

The game is built around the idea that DPS will always be able to bypass healing if they have xx% accuracy. Tank characters either block or disrupt that damage in order for healing to catch up to the damage. Therefore it is designed to have a hard cap on how much healing is allowed in the match per healer, anything higher generally gets nerfed, this means there will be no healing reward for skill past the allowed healing cap of around Moira (currently) unless it is heavily restricted (usually a cooldown).

So when it comes to healing, there is no reason to make it harder since you will never get an equal reward compared to DPS characters.


#34

“in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.”

Let’s look at those assertions again.

Looking at the conditions required to use Resurrect in the first place, this is objectively false. No other ability in the game requires at least one ally to be dead while the player using the ability is still alive in order to activate said ability in the first place, meaning that said player has lived through lethal events.

With most abilities in the game, activation is allowed by one thing:

  • Press its respective key to activate the ability.

With Resurrect, it was/is:

  • Survive an attack that resulted in the death of at least one ally.
  • Press its respective key to activate the ability.

Now throw in the thought process in on top of that:

…And your assertion that

is…

Let’s look at the other one.

This is like saying that Tactical Visor can only be used in one situation; the one in which the enemy team isn’t dead.

Except… the situation in which the enemy team isn’t dead contains a countless number of situations. It isn’t one situation. Likewise, the situation in which at least one ally is dead isn’t just one situation.

You contradict the first half of the sentence with the second half.

So…

A hypothetical person named Bob thinks that the Earth is flat. That is his opinion. Does this suddenly make the fact that the Earth is a sphere subjective?

No. It makes Bob’s opinion objectively incorrect.

Elaborate on that.

I see that sweeping assertion quite a bit. No one has ever actually followed up on it. How about you actually cite some of those “opinions”, and how the underlying arguments for them are incorrect?

Well, it’s a pretty good thing that the circumstances of the post used it in a way that isn’t at all what you are suggesting it was used for…

You might notice the “Anyway”. That means that it wasn’t central to the point.

On top of that, the assertion is correct. If the Mercy player were to let their ultimate charge passively, it would take 5 minutes and 25 seconds to charge it. This is supporting argument that:

When you provide the context, the data isn’t misleading at all, nor was it cherry picked. How fast the average Mercy player charged Resurrect (which I will get to in a minute) isn’t an argument in either direction of:

The average Mercy player wasn’t sitting around waiting for Resurrect to charge passively. The average Mercy doesn’t fit the criteria.

I can prove this incorrect.

Do you want me to prove it incorrect?

I’m going to prove it incorrect. Let me grab some of my older posts.

June 28th, 2017:

"Edit: Some people were complaining that the above data is too theoretical. In that case, let’s pull up some averages. To factor in eliminations with ultimates, I will subtract 200 damage in charge per kill. All data is pulled from Overbuff, specifically the Competitive statistics. CR = conversion ratio.

Mercy:
520 damage = 520 charge.
11905 healing = 9524 charge (4/5 CR).
593 damage amplified = 2569.67 damage done by boosted target = 1927.25 charge (3/4 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 14971.25.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.21 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Soldier:76:
16085 damage = 16085 charge.
1972 healing = 1972 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1092 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 19965.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.62 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Genji:
13545 damage = 13545 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1304 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 15241.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 10.16 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Tracer:
13135 damage = 13135 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-804 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 15331.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 13.63 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Pharah:
16523 damage = 16523 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1140 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 18383.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.94 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Winston:
9887 damage = 9887 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-604 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 12283
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.93 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Zarya:
12140 damage = 12140 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1098 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 14042.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 7.49 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Roadhog
14842 damage = 14842 charge.
3823 healing = 3823 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-798 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 20867.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 10.43 ultimates in 10 minutes.

For !@#$s and giggles, let’s calculate the charge rate of the other support ultimates.

Zenyatta:
9621 damage = 9621 charge.
7350 healing - 2172.73 Transcendence healing = 5177.27 non-ult healing = 6834.00 charge (33/25 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 19455.00.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.38 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Lucio:
7026 damage = 7026 charge.
10322 healing = 13074.43 charge (19/15 CR).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 23100.53.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.80 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Ana:
3668 damage = 3668 charge.
8791 healing = 8791 charge (I am assuming the CR is 1/1, as it is not otherwise specified).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 15459.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.37 ultimates in 10 minutes."

August 12th, 2017:

"Don’t like arguments based off of theoretical numbers? Have some averages. All data is pulled from Overbuff, specifically the Competitive statistics. To factor in eliminations with ultimates, I will subtract 200 damage in charge per kill. Everything is measured in average/10 minutes, any damage factored in is hero damage, and CR = conversion ratio.

Mercy:
521 damage = 521 charge.
11912 healing = 9529.6 charge (4/5 CR).
542 damage amplified = 2348.67 damage done by boosted target = 1761.50 charge (3/4 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 14812.1.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.12 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Soldier:76:
15804 damage = 15804 charge.
2018 healing = 2018 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1094 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 19728.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.51 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Genji:
13316 damage = 13316 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1290 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 15026.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 10.02 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Tracer:
12875 damage = 12875 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-756 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 15119.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 13.44 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Pharah:
16241 damage = 16241 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1106 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 18135.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.80 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Winston:
9915 damage = 9915 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-598 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 12317
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.96 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Zarya:
11973 damage = 11973 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-1082 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 13891.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 7.41 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Roadhog
14041 damage = 14041 charge.
3942 healing = 3942 charge.
3000 passive gain.
-780 charge from ult kills.
Total charge: 20203.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 10.10 ultimates in 10 minutes.

For sh*ts and giggles, let’s calculate the charge rate of the other healer ultimates.

Zenyatta:
9379 damage = 9379 charge.
7390 healing - 2158.60 Transcendence healing = 5231.40 non-ult healing = 6905.45 charge (33/25 CR).
3000 passive gain.
Total charge: 19284.45.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.29 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Lucio:
6988 damage = 6988 charge.
10519 healing = 13324.07 charge (19/15 CR).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 23312.07.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 8.88 ultimates in 10 minutes.

Ana:
3629 damage = 3629 charge.
8789 healing = 8789 charge (I am assuming the CR is 1/1, as it is not otherwise specified).
3000 passive charge.
Total charge: 15418.
Ignoring usage delay, that’s 9.34 ultimates in 10 minutes."

So… for “one of the fastest-charging ults by far in average situations”, it sure did a good job of… charging pretty flipping slow.

Of the ultimates you see listed above, Resurrect charged slower on average than:

  • Transcendence.
  • Tactical Visor.
  • Dragonblade.
  • Rocket Barrage.
  • Nano-Boost.
  • Whole Hog.
  • Pulse Bomb.

*On one (or five) condition(s), that allowed for a bunch of different situations.

You only use offensive ultimates when the enemy team is alive. Is that excluding variety?
You only use healing abilities when allies are below full health. Is that excluding variety?

There’s a bit of a flaw in your argument…

That allows for quite a lot of variety in application.

Yes.

An ability that throws just about every skill required to use Mercy’s base kit out that window and replaces it with what is realistically just a spectator mode while holding LMB or RMB is “determined entirely by the skill of the Mercy using it”.

All the interesting things are done for you, thus removing any interest in these two.

Cool, I can fly. How is this helping me in any way other than just providing me with a means to remove myself from the fight while I let my auto-lock beams that I no longer have to manage do all the work for me?

Isn’t it clear that there’s a problem when the most interesting way to use Valkyrie is contradictory to Mercy’s design?

I’ll just… Plop this here.


#35

You are not wrong (That’s why i used the headshot Dmg from 76). But you ignore the bigger picture. DPSs need aiming skills to maximise their Dmg output, but that’s it. All supports not only need good aim to be played well, they also need a hell of a lot of game senses which non of the DPSs needs. They need to take care of all 12 players in one match while DPSs focuse is on max 6-7 (including themself). The amount of stuff a DPS has to think about is not comparable with what sups need to take care of.

The game was originally built around teamplay and not just DPSs as it is now (Teamplay still beats DPSs, but it’s way harder now).
Also, yet again, what you are saying is the same with DPSs.
The Dmg they can do is just as much caped as the healing from sups, but sups can still, if played well, out play the DPS. Even with caped healing.
Using the enemy against hinself is way harder than just using your own resources. Non physical skills always beat physical skills, that’s just how things are.