The same thing as you? If the game sucks then the game sucks. I’ll blame whatever thing is harmful to the game.
Complaining about not having a role que and complaining about this stuff can be done at the same time you know? I have 0 respect for people ragequitting, and have had since the beginning, and ofcourse it sucks when you end up in a team that isn’t capable enough, but those things are already getting fixed, role que wasnt.
People who leave games get a lower SR than you and as such you don’t see them again, you can even avoid them if you wish. Same with bad teammates, avoid the bad ones, que up with friends or just hope you get better teammates next time!
What was the fix for having a solo healer or a solo tank every single game? Oh wait… There was none. Tough luck, suck it up buttercup, you’re stuck playing with the same apes who, and i quote you:
but who can pick exactly whatever they want and there is NOTHING you can do about the composition of your team, even if you wanted to.
She got nerfed because of Overwatch league, a competition without a role que. Overwatch nerfs and buffs characters based on the playtime they see in high tier games.
You gave a suggestion and got feedback on it.
I’m content with role queue being added, gonna wait and see before I start giving suggestions on something that very well may be an improvement.
Pick Moira, pick Lucio. Both of them are capable of escaping spawn, have better mobility and survivability because of it. Cant do that, then you’re not really flexing, and you were never really helping your team by constantly changing.
… I can still play exactly as many tanks as I was always able to. But now I actually have a second tank and two supports instead of 3-4 DPS on my team. If that sucks in your book… I hope this game sucks for years to come
Comp is always fun with friends with whom we have an established chemistry and playstyle.
This doesn’t mean 2/2/2 works with randos.
…it does suggest a guild/clan system in which we can tag our proficiencies might work. Instead of adding every pleasant rando as a “friend” to my Battle net, a guild option would let us categorize members internally (which worked fine in WoW).
Heck, ESO lets you join 5 guilds at a time (so I was in a PVE guild, 2 PVP guilds, an RP guild, a Trade guild… a bit overkill for Overwatch, but it was a great system that let us cultivate multiple social circles based on playstyle and interests).
I know the Heal line-up and I certainly play both of those. Thanks for the superfluous advice.
The fact remains that once our DPS killed their healers, the enemy healers spent 4/5ths of the match unable to escape the spawn. Lucio is fast & Moira has bursts of movement, but neither of them is out-running a Tracer or Sombra or Hanzo’s arrows.
Plus this was Hollywood - after the 1st objective - so that’s a long distance for anyone to dash while trying to evade campers.
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If you want to get personal, my issue is Mei. A good Mei can disable the majority of the tanks in the roster - and most of the trendy #Edgewatch lineup is usually trash at putting her down.
I can play her. I can counter her. And if our team is heavy on flankers or self-healers on a defense-map, I can probably get off heals to play her - her wall is amazing at sheltering the team. If we have a Hog, Soldier, Sombra (etc) then self-heals aren’t an issue.
But despite knowing how to counter her, I’ve stuck to healing the last few days (in prep of 2/2/2) and she just dominates. The defense (that she disables) are very vulnerable to her if the 2 assigned DPS don’t appreciate how much damage she does to the tanks and swap to counter her.
MAYBE Ana can get a sleep or splash on her, if you have one. But she laughs at Baptiste, Zen, Mercy, Lucio, etc. Even Brigette is fair game.
MAYBE Zarya can bubble long enough to hold her off. Or Wrecking Ball if he gets lucky with a swing (and she doesn’t toss a wall to block him). But again, Mei can laugh at most of the line up. Freeze Hog mid-heal, freeze Winston mid-ult, no DVA flying off, no Rein shields - even Orisa, just wait for her to pop FORTIFY - toss a wall to ignore her - and then drop it at 4 seconds to cripple her too.
I rather counter Mei off the 1st swap - instead of letting heals/tanks be crippled until the Widowmakers realize that the close-range icy-Satan is a bigger threat than the enemy sniper.
But with 2/2/2, off what I’ve seen so far, everyone is just fair game. Under 2/2/2, it’s better to be “useless but loyal to our role” than to actually counter-play to help our team.
Not sure why you care about how well the enemy plays? If they can’t get out of spawn or have better movement, position, cool down management that’s on them to improve.
Mei’s slow ability got a nerf same as all the others, Rein as 30% resistence to cc on ptr Orisa has Fortify, Zarya it’s all about her bubble timing and positioning. Winston has leap as an escape. Not seeing an issue. D.Va and Roadhog merely have to play smarter. She’s not great against Widow/Hanzo/Ashe. As a support Ana can sleep dart her, call it out kill her as team, Lucio can outrun her, Moira can fade away. Mercy can GA to to save herself as well. The only issue is if it’s Zen and perhaps Baptiste depending on he uses his abilities
If your healers or, you, can’t do these things that’s not the Mei’s issue that’s your weakness and you or whoever needs to learn how to work against it in a smart way.
Because “the enemy” isn’t a monolith. It didn’t matter how good the healers were, they were basically invited to AFK, because none of their options had a chance against the flankers. This is the problem with 2/2/2. In a normal Overwatch game, they’d just go Winston and chase the flankers off for a few seconds.
And what goes around, comes around. That’s why I dread being locked into a single role when sometimes the healers need to swap a second to stabilize ourselves. It wasn’t their healers fault that their tanks went Orisa/Zarya - and thus couldn’t quickly retreat to spawn every time they needed an escape. I snuck over at one point and our DPS were just demolishing anything healer that they tried.
Even in matches where I CAN (currently) swap, and I’m healing, I’ll resist the urge and call out when someone is destroying our backline… the Tracers and Widows and crew don’t come save the payload. Even if they try, their skill set is unrelated. I can’t blame a good hitscan for not having the same skills set as those of us who fight up-close (and vice versa).
I play Mei regularly (especially if we need defense). You’re thinking of her as a “DPS” and I’m thinking of her as a “control”.
Against cliffs/bunkers, it’s easy to blind the enemy team by just putting a wall in front of Rein/Orisa/Etc. What good is your shield if your DPS can’t see or shoot through it? Everyone advances or repositions then.
Versus Snipers (Widow/Hanzo/Ashe/Ana), this also works - use the wall as cover to deny snipers their vantage - and if I can reach the payload, I use the load as a shield for the rest of the match).
Against close-corners & chokes, you throw the wall BEHIND Rein or Orisa, Hog, etc to cut them off the heals/DPS & they usually don’t have time to realize they’re isolated & cornered until I’m already on them. It’s my absolute favorite, since it renders shield-tanking useless.
Against Orisa’s Fortify, if the map lets you get close first, force her to pop Fortify (4 secs) & then pop your wall (5 secs) to divide you both. Disable whoever is on your side of the wall & when it melts, you know Orisa is vulnerable too. She’s a great tank, so you don’t target her, you isolate her (and she’s more vulnerable than Rein on this).
Winston, Dva, Lucio, etc are laughable - if your only “defense” is to flee, then you’re not really protecting your team or payload, are you? And she wrecks their ults. Icewall counters DVAs ult (and lets our shield-tanks keep defending); and I can ignore Winston/Lucio’s bonus HP/Armor (since when you’re frozen, you can’t DO anything with it). Play the yearly “Yeti Hunt” and you’ll demolish Winston on the reg.
Baptiste is a joke. I tried him when he launched - but Mei is a control-character, not a DPS - and Baptiste’s entire kit is centered around positioning (which Mei controls). His heals & immortality field might infuriate burst-DPS like McCree, Genji, Doomfist…but all Mei sees is “how convenient - the glowy AoE tells me exactly where you’ll be restricting your movements, so I can cripple you all in a huddle”. Ashe, Pharah, Junkrat, Hammond and others with a good knockback also invalidate most of Baptiste’s kit. Want to spoil his ult? Don’t “shield” yourself with an ice-wall… throw it right into his ult. They’re all going to neatly line-up behind it & popping it a half foot beyond means their projectiles can’t actually go through Matrix. By the time the wall drops, half of them are off-position, trying to shoot around.
MAYBE a good Ana can counter her (sleep-dart + denying her healing) - but if you miss the dart, you’re dead.
But the most consistent Mei counters (that demand you to switch) are either a good Sombra (to invalidate her kit) or Junkrat/Pharah (whose positioning & splash damage will reach Mei even as she blinds everyone else; plus both of them have knock-back that can ruin Mei’s positioning; so it becomes impossible to cart-dance).
2/2/2 makes it impossible to counter-play when the counter-picks are in a completely different category; so the only option heals/tanks will have is to runaway (and abandon the objective) until one of the Offense (who have the most variety) swaps to save us
“Fleeing” is not countering. Escaping, while letting your team die & losing the payload, is not a success.
I’ve played as - and against - Mei and her 2 strongest counters are 2 DPS, not heals or tanks (which she disables). She was one of the original “Defense” characters and her kit often ignores the #Edgewatch roster because she demands a counter-control character, not raw damage.
This is one of the reasons it’s so insane to pretend we can lump 16 characters into a category when they don’t function alike.
So I queue heals.
Versus Mei:
Zen is dead.
Baptiste is humiliated & then dead. Her kit specifically punishes him for trying to use his kit.
Mercy is fleeing, vulnerable or dead. Her only mobility depends on a teammate - so you don’t actually have control as to whether or not someone is positioned for you to escape. If they do, you might live; if they don’t, you will die. Plus, again, escaping is not succeeding at saving lives.
Lucio is fleeing or needs luck. He’s probably one of my heaviest played Healers, and can cart-dance like a beast, but Mei can cart-dance and control too. On a pit-map, maybe we can one-shot her in Eichenwalde bridge, Nepal, Ilios and protect our team - but on Route 66, Dorado, etc Lucio can only delay, retreat or die.
Things improve with
Moira
…she doesn’t counter Mei, but her mobility & (bouncy) offense can dance around Mei’s control-focused playstyle (and maybe get her to retreat). A leech vs freeze isn’t a win for Moira - but Moira’s purple orb (10 sec CD, 200 dmg, bounces) can ruin her heals (Mei has 250hp; cryo is 12 sec CD, 150hp, 4 secs).
So if Mei attacks Moira, Moira usually needs to run
but if Mei focuses the Tank, Moira can cripple Mei’s sustain
and if Mei fights Moira in a hallway, the orb will cripple Mei.
You can’t counter her, and she’s effectively distracting you from healing - but you might harass her enough to disrupt her before she cripples your tanks (at which point, no amount of heal-spam will have sufficed anyways - nothing feels so impotent as trying to spam-heal an exposed & frozen tank).
Ana is dicey.
If you play her long-range as a sniper, hiding in a hall or alcove, Mei can counter like she does most snipers (let’s say you’re defending Eichenwalde… just icewall to blind you & block the hall - then dive the payload to cripple your tanks… once the wall is gone, she’s using the payload as cover so she can continue to ignore your sniping).
Or Mei can goes all Rorschach and decides your isolated position is fantastic, turning a corner and then walling you in the hall. Hanzo’s the only sniper who can really trouble her at close-range (and even then, not enough to discourage me from trying to get him).
If you play Ana close-range, you have a good chance of landing the sleep dart - but if you miss, Mei freezes you. You can try the Biotic Grenade (if you catch her before she iceblocks, congrats) but now you’re out of tricks. If your team doesn’t focus her, you’re dead (and I say this as a sometimes-Mei who is familiar with Ana’s dart lol… if the enemy team is too distracted by a Pharah or Bastion or whatever, as soon as I’m up I’m walling Ana apart from her team and killing her. Mei’s a constant close-range threat, Ana’s a 2-trick delay at best.)
Brigette
Big ol’ blank, I’ll admit - and since they’re going to redo her because of 2/2/2, any debate is moot. I like her kit but (playing both as Mei & Brigette), it always feels like Brigette “gets one lucky shot to toss/kill Mei” or “doesn’t get a lucky shot and just dies slowly like everyone else”.
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All in all, there are going to be some very happy flankers & snipers & co who are going to relish knowing that players can’t swap - so if you got 16 options focused on killing, and the best counter-picks are DPS… those flankers can rest easy that the healers and/or tanks won’t have access to the proper counter-picks. We can just die over and over because our DPS is busy elsewhere or doesn’t know how to play the right counter.
Honestly if they added a role-swap request I would be a little more on board for role-lock, because as it stands I am a flex player who decides what I want to play depending on the map I am on.
Most Payload/Hybrid maps I go DPS on attack, support on defense, KOTH I go either Sombra or support, 2cp I support. I don’t have the option to queue depending on this and sometimes, I just wanna DPS, but because I don’t want to DPS on just any ol’ map I gotta just hope I get one of those maps I do like playing DPS on when I queue for DPS. Role-Queue as it is, doesn’t do anything for me because I don’t know what map I am getting into.
Also, the way my Duo and I play, if I am unsure if I will do my job on DPS one day I’ll let him know so he’ll say “okay no problem, I’ll go support if you need” and if I can’t hit the broad side of a barn I just say “Take DPS from me” and then we do a swaparoo and team synergy fixed.
Speaking of Team Synergy: Role-queue does nothing for the “quality of matches” overall because for me 4 DPS solo-tank solo-heal is an okay comp. I am fine running a 4-1-1, because it can work with Hammond + Mercy/Moira and basically whatever DPS. What I can’t get behind are teams where nothing synergies which happen more often than 5-6 dps. Great we got a 2-2-2 but we have Orisa Zarya Reaper, Sym, and Lucio Brig. It’s a 2-2-2 but the synergy of that team is horrible. Lucio says “go-go-go” and Orisa says “no we stay here” and there goes everything. Can it work? Yeah, but it’s easily torn apart.
Then we’ll have people who want those quick Queue times and DPS Moira’s will be more common, Zen’s who don’t know orb priority and trans to save themselves will be more common. Rein’s who don’t understand the value and finesse of right click will be more common, Watching your Winston dive in and turtle in his shield and not even attempting to shield dance will result in more frustration than it’ll solve.
I would also argue that role queue almost encourages one-trick play. You have a guaranteed slot in the role your OTP is in, all you gotta do is hurry up and lock them in before someone else does. I am a former Hanzo one-trick and I am seriously considering going back to it because I have one guaranteed DPS slot. All I need is to have 1 back up for emergencies.
The expectation that Support/Tank plays everyone in their role is going to be enforced more by the players, it’s already basically unsaid that if you’re a support main you need to play all of them, or at least one for every possible situation. Think someone who doesn’t have the mechanics and game sense to play Ana, but can play a decent Zen. Yeah their orb aim isn’t the best, but their prioritization makes up for it. They’re more likely to get flamed that they can’t play Ana than my OTP Hanzo is, and I know this from experience.
Basically 2-2-2 will fix the 5-6DPS comps that honestly aren’t that common, and GOATs and any 3-2-1 comp. If you saw a 5-6 DPS comp happening all you gotta do is get the ball rolling for change and more times than not it’ll happen. I’ve seen it and gone “welp…guess I’ll see if I can do anything” and go Zen a lot of times I get a tank to help my squishy self out, but if nothing changes I’ll add to the DPS problem because it’s clear they don’t understand the “team” aspect of the game and I will just let bygones be bygones and queue for the next game. Keep in mind this is in quick play that this happens in.
I am not totally against it, but like I said in the beginning, in it’s current form it’s not my favorite thing that’s been added to the game. I personally would’ve had a 1-1-1 lock, it’d cut down on queue times for DPS and we wouldn’t have traditional GOATs.
Okay but, what I’m failing to understand is how they didn’t just win?
You’re saying you “baited” their tanks all game, intentionally leaving them alive while you spawn killed their healers so that their healers would have no protection to get back?
What exactly did you do to bait them, without killing them, if they didn’t have healers? Why didn’t they just stand on the point if you weren’t killing them? You would have been forced to kill them at that point, because you either would have killed them to stop them from capping, or they would have killed you while you contested.
I just
Whatever happened
I can’t think of any logical explanation that this strat could have worked short of the enemy team simply throwing
I don’t think the vast majority of advocates for 2/2/2 wanted it so they’d always win games? Pretty sure people wanted it because they were tired of wonkey af team comps and getting into games with 5 support or dps mains and no one able to play tank effectively, it’s an attempt to get better quality matches not a crutch to “mah winrate” but sure it is true it didn’t have to happen but the vast majority of the community didn’t want to play nice with one another and learn to flex so this is the solution get over it
Rank shaming on a topic that covers all ranks and game types, that is very a very low act TBH. i’ve been trying to keep out of this thread to let people have a honest discussion but hopefully without people shaming one another.
hmm do I want to deal with 3-5dps in my team and heal that or do I want match that for sure its 2-2-2.Getting stomped because people don’t want to make some what decent team composition,it isnt fun at all.
When will you people learn that players don’t want a 2-2-2 because they think they will suddenly start winning games. We want it because it makes the game less of a coin toss which in turn makes the game more competitive. I don’t expect my overall win-rate to go up, but I do think that the quality of games will go up.
