What really was wrong with mass Resurrect?

[Arceus-2238]

I mean, that isn’t the only option. There’s staggering deaths, baiting out res, kill enemies when they are out of position, aim for the head , anti nade.

[BorutosDad-1307]

listen you can’t “bait out” rez…

staggering deaths

Bad teamplay shouldn’t be a way to counter a ability in this game. It’s like saying to just let the Brig over extend and bam countered.

kill enemies when they are out of position

Same thing here.

aim for the head

You forgot the
Smile
4head

[Arceus-2238]

@HintOfMalice-2431

But the statistics aren’t wholly reliable themselves with private profiles etc, and even then, statistics are up for interpretation. For example, Mercy is generally considered to be a weaker healer than Ana at the minute, despite the fact that our not-so-reliable sources tell us that she still has a higher average healing.

Someone made a pretty good thread explaining why private profiles don’t really significantly effect the statistics.
Here it is:

On Mercy and data

This post was conceived as a companion piece for evaluating my previous post (A month of Mercy nerf in numbers). Other than that, it’s not really going to be about Mercy (though I use her to work out examples). It’s about everyone’s other favorite subject - math. More specifically, I want to address the question: how much trust should we place in Overbuff statistics? I’ve seen a lot of people claim that Overbuff’s numbers are meaningless due to private profiles (or due to the fact that even bef…

@BorutosDad-1307

Bad teamplay shouldn’t be a way to counter a ability in this game. It’s like saying to just let the Brig over extend and bam countered.

No? I’m saying you, If you want to devalue Res, should just stagger your kills. It’s an effective way of ensuring that the Mercy won’t be able to get numerical value out of her ult.

[Sly-13591]

Actually, the encouragement to do so was removed on month before the rework. If they had removed/fixed it earlier, it definitely would’ve died.

The encouragement had to do with simply getting a 5 man Res and possibly winning the game because of it. SR wasn’t the biggest factor, it was the mere fact that Mercy’s could get away with letting their team die if they played their cards right.

[HintOfMalice-2431]

Someone made a pretty good thread explaining why private profiles don’t really significantly effect the statistics.

Personally, I never really considered sites like Overbuff to be accurate anyway, but private profiles takes less explaining. I’ll still have a look at that thread though

[Arceus-2238]

Weird. 5 man resses never encouraged me to hide. With that in mind, it just seems like a select few who actually thought numerical value meant everything when ulting. Also, would this rework suggestion involving mass Resurrect be any good?

@Titanium-1686

Valkyrie:

• Removed.

Resurrect:

• Removed as a basic ability and placed as Mercy’s ultimate ability.
• 15 meter range.
• Line of sight requirement. Does not apply to destructibles, payloads, or non-fundamental map obstacles that are too small to actually obscure a player. In other words, none of that BS where a player can move behind a lamp post to evade a nuclear explosion.
• 1 second cast time. Basic movement is unrestricted while casting, but all attacks and abilities are disabled for Mercy during this time.
• If Mercy is stunned or killed while casting, Resurrect does not activate and Mercy loses all ultimate charge.
• All living allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends receive a burst heal of 150 HP. Mercy also receives this burst heal.
• All dead allies within range and LoS of Mercy once the cast time ends are revived at full health and receive 2.25 seconds of invulnerability (same as current Resurrect and Resurrect pre-rework).
• Mercy does not receive invulnerability upon Resurrect’s activation.
• Resurrect does not require dead allies to be activated.
• 1625 ultimate charge requirement (the same as Mercy 1.x’s Resurrect).

Most importantly, this takes Resurrect off one of Mercy’s basic abilities and places it into a position that matches its ultimate-like behavior. On top of this, various trade-offs were made to the ability to allow for the healing burst and the introduction of a second basic ability.

The healing burst, post-rez vulnerability, cast time, and LoS requirements all incentivise using Resurrect to revive 0-3 players rather than 4+ players. Attempting to use it on four or more players runs a greater risk a failed resurrect attempt due to the cast time. If Mercy manages to use Resurrect, there is a greater chance that she missed some allies due to the LoS requirement. If those two drawbacks do not drag her team down enough, there is also the fact that Mercy is vulnerable post-rez while her teammates are still reviving.

The healing burst and fire-at-will mechanics on Resurrect make the ability more flexible and open up some unique uses for it. For example, Mercy could use Resurrect to grant her team a burst of healing in the middle of the teamfight to keep their momentum going rather than waiting for an ally to rejoin the fight after being killed and revived.

New Basic Ability - Pacify:

• After a .5 second wind-up, Mercy launches a single hitscan attack from her left hand.
• The projectile’s hitbox size resembles that of Symmetra’s secondary fire.
• The projectile deals no damage upon impact with an enemy. Instead, it applies a debuff that reduces the base damage dealt by the target by 33%. 100 damage is reduced to 67 damage before other damage amplifiers/reductions are factored in.
• This debuff lasts for 4 seconds.
• The projectile does not persist once it hits an enemy. It is only able to affect one enemy for each use.
• The projectile is blocked by barriers, Defense Matrix, and Particle Barriers. It can be deflected by Genji’s Deflect ability.
• 10 second cooldown. The cooldown begins after the ability is cast.
• There is a .25 second wind-down time after Pacify is launched.
• During the wind-up and wind-down times, Mercy is not able to use her staff, her pistol, or Resurrect. She may use Guardian Angel, however.
• Does not affect non-player entities and constructs (turrets, Rip-Tire, Supercharger, etc).

[Sly-13591]

Weird. 5 man resses never encouraged me to hide.

Just because you didn’t actively seek out the 5-man’s doesn’t necessarily mean that other people didn’t look at it as a winning strategy, and blame their Mercy for the entire loss when they didn’t do it, regardless of how well Mercy played beforehand.

(And before it’s brought up that “oh only bad mercy’s did that”, the same applied to high ranks as well, it wasn’t just a bronze problem)

would this rework suggestion involving mass Resurrect be any good?

I like the Res idea, but I’d say either pick between the Ult’s Burst heal or the new E. Both might be a little much.

[Titanium-1686]

Move Mercy away from her team… and she doesn’t use the ult…? Because she literally can’t without teammates in range…? Am I missing something?

If you move her away from the team and she presses Q, she still might get 2-3 players.

There’s your number advantage.

Sitting ducks with full HP and reset cooldowns.

And the same can’t be said about your team?

Considering that an ultimate or two can wipe a fresh, fully-mobile team, I don’t think it’s hard to wipe a somewhat-fresh and possibly-incomplete, immobile team.

Are you making the assumption that every time someone dies they go to take a bite of their sandwhich, and then aren’t ready to be rezzed? Because I’m not making that assumption.

Reinhardt has been revived.

The instant at which Reinhardt is able to activate abilities again is the same instant he is able to take damage. The player could be holding RMB down after being Resurrected, and Reinhardt still won’t have his shield up before he starts taking damage simply because there is a delay between button press and barrier expansion/activation.

That window is the window in which the Biotic Grenade hits. Transcendence doesn’t have that window; the team is never disabled to begin with.

Except that none of them actually apply to Rez. Rez isn’t affected. The people afterwards are affected.

That’s like saying Transcendence isn’t affected by burst damage/Bio-nades because Zenyatta’s ability to channel the ultimate isn’t impeded. It’s technically correct, but it doesn’t actually further your argument. The meaning is the same either way.

How about this: The value of Resurrect could be negated using the very same tactics used to negate the value of Transcendence.

Better?

What you did is the same as things that can affect people after Trans has fully healed them and ended, which doesn’t make for a fair test.

Except it does, as Resurrect doesn’t maintain momentum, it doesn’t ensure a team’s survival for the next 6 seconds, and it doesn’t throw advantages at the enemy team.

If there are 5 teammates in Range, and you press Q, 5 people get rezzed. There is no way to reduce its effectiveness.

• Death staggering.
• Target Prioritization.
• Ultimate economy.

The numerical value of something is meaningless if it doesn’t actually result in any value.

There’s no guarantee that you will win the fight in the end, but that’s not what the ability is meant to do, it’s already given you another chance to fight.

And Transcendence/Sound Barrier extend your chance of fighting. The end result is the same.

Your teams cooldowns are reset and the enemies aren’t,

By that logic, why hasn’t the non-dead team gotten their cooldowns refreshed yet?

Surely if the dead team was dead long enough for their cooldowns to complete, then the same can be said about the team that is still alive? Time moves at the same speed regardless as to whether or not you’re dead.

They… aren’t?

Fight starts even. 1-2 Ults are used to win the fight. Mercy Rezzes.

Hold up. Where is Mercy prior to the Resurrection? More specifically, is she participating in the fight?

Either way, if the team playing against Mercy (which I will call Team 1) made a misplay here if they expended 2 ultimates while the enemy expended none.

If Mercy is participating in the fight, why did Team 1 miss the highest-priority target in the game with both of those ultimates? If Mercy is not participating in the fight, why on Earth is Team 1 expending 2 ultimates in the first place?

Mercy Rezzes. Fight restarts even, with the ult advantage in favour of the Rezzed team.

If we exclude the ultimate charge gained from killing X number of players.

The team of victims can now commit another 1-2 ults to win the fight again

Why are they expending two ultimates to kill a team comprised of sitting ducks?

(which puts them at a significant disadvantage for the next fight) or they can run the risk of losing the fight which means the first 1-2 Ults were wasted.

Again, excluding the ultimate charge gained from killing Y number of players.

But the statistics aren’t wholly reliable themselves with private profiles etc,

Private profiles didn’t exist at the time that set of data was recorded that was back in mid-2017.

and even then, statistics are up for interpretation. For example, Mercy is generally considered to be a weaker healer than Ana at the minute, despite the fact that our not-so-reliable sources tell us that she still has a higher average healing.

She is the weaker healer. That is known to be the case.

She is not the weaker of the two at healing. That is also known to be the case, and has been the case since… as long as I can remember.

But you don’t need to be the best at healing to be the best healer, do you?

[Arceus-2238]

(And before it’s brought up that “oh only bad mercy’s did that”, the same applied to high ranks as well, it wasn’t just a bronze problem)

I mean, I only said bad players because it’s hard to tell who actually is good in GM as a Mercy main since those using “Hide n Res” were able to abuse the SR system and climb like crazy.

I like the Res idea, but I’d say either pick between the Ult’s Burst heal or the new E. Both might be a little much.

I think it’s pretty balanced. She now has decent mid-fight utility and has a ult that doesn’t require teammates death. I’d say that’s a win/win.

[Sly-13591]

I mean, I only said bad players because it’s hard to tell who actually is good in GM as a Mercy main since those using “Hide n Res” were able to abuse the SR system and climb like crazy.

I mean, either way there were actual GM players who weren’t Mercy mains blaming Mercy for the loss because they didn’t hide. The issue went beyond just the Mercy’s opinion.

I’d say that’s a win/win.

I mean, yea… It’s an obvious win for Mercy. My concern is if it’s too much of a win.

Simple question:
If Mercy was balanced with Res on ult before, what would giving her a ton of added utility on top of that do? Probably make her OP. Like I said, I’d be fine with either/or, especially with the nerfs in place to bring Res down a notch, but I hesitate to say just throw both in at once and see what happens.

[Arceus-2238]

I mean, either way there were actual GM players who weren’t Mercy mains blaming Mercy for the loss because they didn’t hide. The issue went beyond just the Mercy’s opinion.

I blame xQc and a handful of anti-Mercy streamers for that.

f Mercy was balanced with Res on ult before, what would giving her a ton of added utility on top of that do?

Because Titanium’s mass Resurrect has a lot of drawbacks in comparison to the previous mass Resurrect. Also, before she didn’t have any utility. Remember! Resurrect wasn’t on E and Titanium’s suggestion puts it back on Q. That’s a net decrease in utility already.

[Xrua-1979]

The thing that was wrong about mass resurrect was its existence

[Arceus-2238]

It’s Spam
This post is an advertisement, or vandalism. It is not useful or relevant to the current topic.

[Xrua-1979]

Another form of spam is mercy threads

[DŖǺƇǾ-1138]

I think mass ress would of been fine, if rez cast time to rez someone right now was on massive rez, it would deny the hide because it makes her vulnerable to anything and it would need good counterplay and protection from her team.

Just my idea though.

[Arceus-2238]

Sorry but feedback for a hero is always going to be useful.

[HAJIMA-21120]

“/s” means sarcasm btw…
tho if you think res ain’t worth much, lmfao, dude, it’s rly good, it’s just brainless to pull off and completely dependent on your team [meaning if they cover you, you’re good, if not, well, better luck next time]
dmg boost is also waaaay underrated, tho i still prefer Zen for that , but for some team comps, shes still better cause he can’t follow.

i do agree she feels horrid to play, like, i have 400+h on her, i only didn’t play her in S1 cause i got the game during S2.
still, i think it’s nice to see other healers get playtime for a change…tho i do hope they make her more fun sometime in the future but, honestly, at this point, i think there are other heroes that are in far worse state then her. she still has her spot.

[Sly-13591]

Because Titanium’s mass Resurrect has a lot of drawbacks in comparison to the previous mass Resurrect. Also, before she didn’t have any utility. Remember! Resurrect wasn’t on E and Titanium’s suggestion puts it back on Q. That’s a net decrease in utility already.

I’m getting a little tired of repeating myself here.

I would be fine with one of the bonus’s being added because of the additional drawbacks. I just don’t want to throw too much onto the plate at once.

[DŖǺƇǾ-1138]

And the same can’t be said about your team?

Considering that an ultimate or two can wipe a fresh, fully-mobile team, I don’t think it’s hard to wipe a somewhat-fresh and possibly-incomplete, immobile team.

Agreed with the rest, but the majority of the time, people die in groups, where the team fight ended. With the range of Mercy, it’s a little more difficult to say in-game than in the forums. It really is, once you’ve lost the majority of your ults, even with the consumption / output of ults at low.

It can single handedly return a fight back to the other side, where resources were put it. Ever played Dead By Daylight? A perk called Decisive Strike let’s you get away from the killer on his shoulders for what? DOING THEIR OBJECTIVE. You don’t penalize a well coordinated team with ults for doing their objective.

Which is why Mass Rez would have been fixed with a Cast Time. It would remove every problem with it, even the hide and seek factor and it would give the enemies a chance to finish it off. If she got the 6 man off, then that’s their problem for poor communication.

But when you can’t punish someone from just clicking a button for doing their objective is incorrect. I agree though on the rest.

[HintOfMalice-2431]

If you move her away from the team and she presses Q, she still might get 2-3 players.

There’s your number advantage.

That’s before the ult. Mercy can prevent this by saving Rez.

Considering that an ultimate or two can wipe a fresh, fully-mobile team, I don’t think it’s hard to wipe a somewhat-fresh and possibly-incomplete, immobile team.

Sure, it’s doable, with more ults. If you choose not to use more ults, then you run the risk of losing, thus wasting the original ult(s)

That window is the window in which the Biotic Grenade hits

I think if an Ana hits this from in front of the shield, she deserves to get the anti-off. And if she was able to flank to get it off and not feed, then she deserves to get it off. Rez =/= “win the fight when you would have lost it”.

That’s like saying Transcendence isn’t affected by burst damage/Bio-nades because Zenyatta’s ability to channel the ultimate isn’t impeded. It’s technically correct, but it doesn’t actually further your argument. The meaning is the same either way.

No, because a bio-nade directly prevents Zen from healing his team, but Mercy still rezzes her team.

She still gets full value out of her ult, whereas Zen’s ult (designed to prevent death from sustained damage) loses its value.

The value of Resurrect could be negated using the very same tactics used to negate the value of Transcendence.

Burst damage negates the value of Trans. Bio-nades negate Trans itself. Very different things.

Resurrect doesn’t maintain momentum, it doesn’t ensure a team’s survival for the next 6 seconds, and it doesn’t throw advantages at the enemy team.

Nor does it have to

• Death staggering.
• Target Prioritization.
• Ultimate economy.

Yeah, none of these actually reduce the effectiveness of Rez.

What you do with the advantage Rez gives you isn’t Rez’s problem.

And Transcendence/Sound Barrier extend your chance of fighting. The end result is the same.

Yes, but if you Rez 5 people, then you have extended the fight. If you pop Trans or SB which is immediately countered by a nade or an EMP etc, then you have not extended the fight, but you still lose the ult.

Either way, if the team playing against Mercy (which I will call Team 1) made a misplay here if they expended 2 ultimates while the enemy expended none.

Expending ults to win a fight when the other team doesn’t isn’t necessarily a misplay. Dumping half of your ults and getting none is definitely a misplay, but if a fight is even or barely one-sided, then ults can viably be used.

If Mercy is participating in the fight, why did Team 1 miss the highest-priority target in the game with both of those ultimates? If Mercy is not participating in the fight, why on Earth is Team 1 expending 2 ultimates in the first place?

It’s very easy to create play-perfect scenarios where either of these options are ridiculous, but my post is solely going off my games. In real games, stuff can happen. Mercy’s Widow can get a pick early one, or an enemy might miss an important ability or it may get countered. Sometimes people just get carried away and use ults inefficiently. So, although the ults status and positions etc are entirely hypothetical, they’re based on real games. The point is, that we’re ultimately comparing Rez to other Support ults. Not to mention that my original post was in reply to the OP who assumed that Rez was used in response to an Ult being used.

If we exclude the ultimate charge gained from killing X number of players.

This would be very little if 2 ults were used. There wouldn’t be much damage left to do with their standard kit.

Why are they expending two ultimates to kill a team comprised of sitting ducks?

I don’t know where this idea of sitting ducks comes from. The Rezzed team are allowed to use abilities once the Rez is complete.

Again, excluding the ultimate charge gained from killing Y number of players.

This is a slightly different point to the last one that was similar, so this actually has more weight. Unlike last time, my mention of “risk” assumes that no ults are used after Rez, so all killing done is done with base kit - which grants ult charge. However Team 1 uses 1-2 ults, Team 2 uses Rez. If Team 1 then wins then happy days. Life is good. But if they lose (which they may) they wasted ults. Not only did they waste ults, but more of them died than the enemy team, so the enemy got more ult charge from the fight. Thus, Team 1 is at an ult disadvantage. And if Team 1 commits another ult and wins, then some of the damage done will not grant ult charge, and you’re not going to fully charge 3 ults from one fight.

Private profiles didn’t exist at the time that set of data was recorded that was back in mid-2017.

I did mention, although not to you, that I wasn’t 100% sold on them in the first place, since they were almost always wrong about my stats, so I can’t trust them being right for anyone else.

She is the weaker healer. That is known to be the case.

She is not the weaker of the two at healing. That is also known to be the case, and has been the case since… as long as I can remember.

But you don’t need to be the best at healing to be the best healer, do you?

No, you don’t. Because currently, with so much burst, the “best healer” is the one than can keep the enemy alive the longest through incoming damage. My point was statistics require context - real game application.