Again, it’s not an either-or.
The goal is not “either Mercy mains are happy and no one else, or vice-versa”.
If that’s what you think, I’m glad YOU aren’t in charge.
Again, it’s not an either-or.
The goal is not “either Mercy mains are happy and no one else, or vice-versa”.
If that’s what you think, I’m glad YOU aren’t in charge.
You’re asking me as if I think Brigitte’s healing is too high.
The reason Mercy’s healing is too low is due to her role as main healer. She has no burst healing; her only option is single-target sustain, but 50 hps only makes her SLIGHTLY better than Zenyatta–with less range, a worse ult, and the inability to do anything else while she heals.
Anyway, it’s clear you’re just a salty troll trying to get a reaction from “Mercy one tricks” (which, again, I ain’t). So regardless of what you have to say next, you aren’t worth me wasting any more of my time.
What I don’t understand is why the complaining started AFTER she wasn’t a must pick anymore. In your case, you had 100$ while everyone’s else had 50$.
This is objectively false. We’ve always been complaining. One look at the old forums and old posts on this forums will tell you that.
There absolutely can be something to accomplish. If one person dislikes the status quo and suggests a change they consider an improvement, it doesn’t mean that another person who is already happy with the status quo could not possibly like that suggestion. The best case scenario is an outcome that both parties are happy with, in other words a compromise.
It is perfectly valid to make a suggestion just as it is perfectly valid to not agree with that suggestion. A compromise can not be reached if you instantly disqualify any point the other party is trying to make simply because you disagree with their motives.
So how can this be a fact all of a sudden if fun can’t be measured?
I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion about whether or not “fun” should be a valid argument, and I still haven’t written anything about Mercy in this thread. If your agenda is to denounce Mercy players because all of them allegedly exploited the SR system back in the days, please, leave me out of it. I have zero interest to argue about this again.
Didn’t you tell me that there is nothing to accomplish in arguing about fun? Because now it looks like you are trying to convince me that all the people who played her “right” found her boring and all the people who had “fun” were exploiters who were hurting the game, and this is indeed starting to sound a lot like “my fun is more important than your fun”.
Either way, I still don’t know why you want to argue about Mass Rez so badly, because again, I never brought it up.
“Super active” is not how I would describe Valkyrie, but yeah, opinions.
What does that have to do with the op’s suggestion or with what I wrote in particular?
Are you trying to imply I was exploiting the SR system now? That’s new.
Either way, obviously my fun is a primary concern for me. Because, you know, I bought the game to have fun with it. Crazy, right?
“She must be fun otherwise people wouldn’t play her so if you think she isn’t fun your argument is invalid.” And just like that, we’re back to square one. The amount of people who agree or disagree with a person is irrelevant to that person’s right to voice their concerns, and if they, and only they, are not having fun in a game they bought to have fun with, that’s a perfectly valid reason to do so. If, how or when a developer should react to that concern is an entirely different question.
So fun is a valid arguement then?
Then what about Junkrat? He was no where near a must pick level (wasn’t even the most picked DPS by far), but nerfed because he had a “frustrating part to his kit”.
Not when the healing is too low to sustain a Tank. Not when it’s rather easy to burst through with literally any DPS character. Not when you could get the more healing value from just having a Moira and being grouped up. Damage Boost is the only part of Valkyrie that I find useful to have on a team. Free flight isn’t even that good because if they have a counter hitscan ultimate, you’re dead.
Sure it has a lot going for it, but not much of it is really useful to me as a Tank player. I’d rather have Ana or Moira any day
Did I say I was the Mercy? I don’t really play her to often, I just don’t like her on my team as a Tank Player.
if you’re having a brawl on point, rezzing is suicide. No matter if you have a bubble or not. Because when Mercy is rezzing, she’s not healing, and if she’s not healing, I’m dying. Rez is also pretty easy to punish, even if the team is protecting her.
Rezzing in the middle of a brawl on point in near suicide without Valkyrie. Protection or no.
I could also say that “How to counter Mass Rez, have your team mate go find her 4head”, does that make it good advice? Nope. You can’t control what your team mates do. Just because you ask, doesn’t mean you receive.
Both are actually. One person can think that Mei is OP, and the other doesn’t. People perceive balanced around the hero they play the most. I see it based off tank play, Mercy players see it off how she plays etc. etc.
balance isn’t as cut and dry as “or she has x pickrate therefore x is OP”, they could just be really popular. there were people that thought Bastion with 35% Ironclad was balanced, but since they were a minority Bastion was changed. He is now in arguably a worse spot than before Ironclad. does this mean that the Pro-35% Ironclad people were right?
I mean, based on the sheer number of posts by different people and the thousands upon thousands of comments in the Mercy mega-thread… It seems to be that way. Just as you can’t prove they are not a majority, I can’t prove that they are. All we can do is argue based on our thoughts alone.
My point with that is because of the sheer out cry of people saying Mercy was unfun to play against, it was changed. So Fun was used as a reason for balance, and therefore not an unreasonable arguement to make. Mercy was UP with Mass Rez. Even with Invuln. Rez she saw 0 use in pro play. So she was technically balanced with Mass Rez, but just unfun to play with and against.
It doesn’t, I just shared my thoughts on Mercy and that I don’t find her enjoyable. It’s up to Blizzard on which side they listen to, but of course I would like them to side with my POV.
If you have fun on Mercy, good for you, but I won’t playing around a Mercy.
It’s more of the fact that I like playing aggressive. I find playing too passively to be punishing from experience. With a Mercy as a main heal, I can’t be aggressive. She has no burst, no way to keep me alive apart from 50 HP/s, which if a Winston is tickling me then I’m for sure dead.
I don’t find anything in her kit worth it. Ana with her Nade and CC is better. Moira with her vastly superior healing is better. The only thing that is left is Rez, which unless she is queuing with someone to babysit her 24/7, mostly likely won’t happen should I die on point.
I’m not going to be like “Oh a Mercy GG EZ We Lost” or anything, but I just sort of sigh in slight annoyance.
The other healers can swing a fight in one direction or another. Nade is one of the best abilities in this game. Moira with her heal balls and strong healing allows me to create space. Mercy can maybe rez me depending on our team and the situation, once every 30 seconds. Ana can swing a team-fight with an ability on a 10 second cool-down.
There’s no other support that can Anti-heal a whole team. There’s no healer that can bash people with a personal shield. There’s no other healer that can cause a 30% damage increase to a single target. It’s part of Mercy unique identity, like the part every healer has.
Is this the best they can do?
Also, that’s not a middle ground, that’s just your side. I mean by middle ground is something that can please both sides. Which it is obviously failing at due to how hot a topic this is on the forums.
People have also stated how Mass Rez could have been tweaked to not be as terrible that people have said a bajillion times.
In my opinion, it is. Since really only hit-scan’s can pressure you in Valkyrie, most other DPS just don’t even bother going for you. They just melt your team instead because you aren’t a priority. It’s not like Valkyrie makes people that much harder to kill anyways. When I play Mercy I valkyrie expecting to have to pull some crazy moves, but they just ignore me. It feels boring to me, but again that’s just me.
Not really a burst. Moira can do the same thing for nearly triple the healing of Valkyrie just by having good positioning and target priority. Coalesence feels clutch because you can save a dying team mate with high healing. As Mercy your’s will die because 50 HP/s is something even a Winston can negate.Is she more at risk to die than in Valkyrie? Maybe, depends where she is. She can also damage while doing it. So you feel as if you can do more. Mercy’s just makes you feel as if you have only 2 options, Heal or Damage.
EDIT: I just wanted to address this quote real quick.
Actually I would say there is, as currently the most upvoted post in forum history is a suggestion for a Mercy Rework.
With 1686 Upvotes. That indicates it to be a pretty popular idea. So I would say that there is a clear favorable solution.
Now, Yes this is technically a Revert. BUT, it is a revert with a heap load of drawbacks added that could discourage and prevent Hide-and-Rez.
It also gives Mercy an ability to affect a fight more heavily. I don’t know how this would play out from the perspective of a tank player, but I find it interesting.
Uhm, no? Not when you are talking about balance. Dunno where you got that conjecture from.
What about Junkrat? We are not talking about Junkrat, we are talking about Mercy.
No single support can sustain a tank under pressure fire or burst damage. Same applies to any DPS. A widowmaker will one-shot you no matter which support is supporting you. Your argument is pointless.
That sounds like a “you” problem to me, not an issue with Mercy.
What rank are you? I have never been killed by hit-scan while flying with Valkyrie, ever. Not a single time. And if we count ults, only once to a nano-boosted high noon Mcree.
Your personal preference is not an indication for anything other than taste.
Sounds like a personal issue again.
Not if your tanks are smart, done it plenty of times.
That only seems like an indication to your skill as a tank, not an issue with your support.
Never had any issue pulling it off. But than again I’m in a group of 120 people so playing in a 6-stack with someone who speaks my language is never an issue. Still communication and teamwork is expected in a game like this. This is not an issue with the hero.
Except map design is such that very often even if you killed Mercy first, she was able to come back from spawn and rez everyone anyway. Making the entire game basically a hunting contest who can find the hiding spot of the Mercy and then wipe the team before she makes it back. And so on and so forth - this is well documented etc.
Bias and subjectivity are two different things. The more heroes you play, the more likely you are not to have a lot of bias towards a particular hero. Don’t confuse the terminology.
Never stated that. And we are not talking about Bastion.
My proof is by virtue of mass rez not existing in the game. Pretty irrefutable proof I would say - something that the majority of the community, the pros and the devs agreed upon. The SR abuse is well documented, the hide&rez unhealthy mechanic was a clearly established phenomenon. Both of those things are irrefutable. The forums are a minuscule fraction of the community and the forums is not a homogeneous group and neither are the Mercy mains. These comments you talk about are always by the same people, same with the threads.
It was changed because it was causing unintended gameplay and a broken mechanic.
Mercy was never UP ever in the history of OW. And she was a must pick in OWL for 8+ months. You are irrefutably wrong on both accounts. Mercy was not a solid pick for 1% of the OW population for 3 seasons only. Which makes her a must pick for 9 seasons and a solid choice for 3 more seasons anywhere under that 1%.
Sounds like a personal issue again. Not an issue with the character.
Yep, clearly a personal issue.
You might wanna start watching some more OWL mate in that case. Sorry you hate Mercy but your bias is clearly showing in all honesty. I don’t hate Mercy and I would welcome any Mercy on my team.
Sorry, OP Mercy ain’t coming back again, they made multiple statements about it.
Didn’t you claim you don’t play Mercy? You need to make up your mind to make your argument and story more consistent.
Already established that burst damage cannot be out-healed no matter which support it is.
You realize that in a game with 40 million accounts, 1000 people is so abysmally small. Not to mention many of those upvotes are clearly from smurfs (forum accounts with literally 0 posts). Not to mention the suggestion itself is so ridiculously broken that I would seriously question the objectivity of anyone who think it’s a good idea to give Mercy a mass rez for dead teammates and an AoE 150 Burst heal for living allies and Mercy herself at the same time. This is so brokenly overpowered, that it’s beyond me how anyone can quote this thread like it’s some sort of gospel.
me?? having money?? im calling bs
I would be upset but I’d get over it and move on because you don’t need to lose brain cells or hold a grudge over something that little.
Pressing M1+M2 and using GA on Mercy’s base kit is a lot more complex, fun and engaging than Valkyrie.
Valkyrie takes away from all the things you learn in the base kit.
It makes her easier. An already mechanically easy hero should not be made easier.
I want to have a single beam so I can prioritize and beam juggle.
I want to use GA effectively to dodge ults and damage.
I want to use GA to make it seem like I am flying.
I want her to have her weaknesses.
I don’t want my team to suffer because Valkyrie tries to do everything you work hard to master on her base kit and undermines you as the player, but because you have to charge it like every other ult, it comes up during other times when people have ultimates and when you activate Valkyrie, some of you team are more likely to group up a little more which just begs them to get ulted and there is nothing you can do to stop it. It hardly makes her more effective than her base kit solely because it is an ultimate that pretty much is reflecting what a Mercy can play like on the base kit but when her team groups up so much, it loses so much power because it just screams “ult us, we are in a bunch and valk cannot stop it”.
If your team groups up, it gets them killed but to make use of chain beams they need to be grouped up. Realistically it is just a range increase that heals poorly because 50hps is terrible and 60 was this optimal middle ground especially when she didn’t have bloody chain beams that turn her into easy mode.
Not to mention, flying away and being as far from the fight as possible are all denying her having weakness during ult.
If you have an ultimate on a mechanically easy hero that makes them easier to use and then also stops them from having their weaknesses, then it cannot hold power because it will result in an imbalance.
Ults all have their own drawbacks, but they change dependent on how that hero spends time on their base kit. Ana has to aim and has to deal with barriers, etc and has no mobility. Her tools help her to try and avoid being dived but overall she has a huge set of weaknesses to manage, her ult therefore is very forgiving because her effort is required in so many other ways.
Moira, has no utility. Also has to deal with shield blocking which she definitely should not. She should be the most optimal choice to contend for Mercy’s spot if balanced correctly. If she had a bit of utility and was able to move just a little more often and could heal through barriers she would be a step up from Mercy in mechanical requirements. Still easy enough to use but still takes a slight more skill has a the management aspects of the healing on her kit. Moira’s ult is earned very quickly and is used as a tempo ult. It is very strong for in between ult fights to sustain a team and damage enemies. It is quick to use because it doesn’t do much more than what she does on her base kit, it just gives her a moment where she is better at what she does but actually can have impact because it is 140hps on every teammate it touches. That is over double Mercy’s effectiveness for ults that have a similar role tempo ults used in the non-ult fights.
YourOverwatch covered this pretty well in a video they made recently where they were making predictions on what all the new changes may mean for the meta. They pretty much pointed out all the issues of where we are at now and what the nerf had done to Mercy.
Valkyrie would be better if it wasn’t something that just tried to do her base kit for you. People find joy in the challenges of the single beam management and learning how to best position yourself and use GA skillfully to avoid thing. Not just Q away and let Valk do everything you can already manage to do on her base kit.
You miss the point of the analogy, which is to show that being given a slight revert might cause people to feel unhappy. Because they used have it and they were unhappy before with valk at 60hps. It’s to explain those feelings not coming from a place of entitlement or even a statement on balance it’s simply describing how it feels.
Quality not quantity. Extra bells and whistle are meanless if they cant’ get the job done. Valks are suppose to resurrection the slain an ult should encourage it. However the reality is Mercy’s kit has been so water down she just avoids lot of bodies of fallen comrades almost all together in ULT. She’s gotten so bad, people call her a moth instead. Mass instant res, to two quick res, no quick res and free kills and line up shots for enemy team.
You kind of miss the point how they point out the troll buff.
Imagine the same bad logic. Nerfing Soldier base rifle damage by -10%. Then giving the damage back on his ULT with +10% rifle damage. What an amazing buff? Sleight of hand, two steps back, but one step forward.
Don’t forget almost dozen nerfs on Mercy almost back to back.
So Mercy is now bad at offense/defense/support and consider a throwing or feeding the other team by even Bronze players. But in your opinion this is balance even though her winrate and pick rate is tanking and she does poorly in other arcade modes outside of comps/quickplay. Mercy was design to be top heavy on support because she has nothing else strong to offer.
No hypocritical double standards. Imagine if ULTS were hard capped at only two max kills or their primary skill delayed for two seconds and force to become a sitting duck for free enemy kills. They too would be crying foul or calling it unfun.
Most of your replies are just dismissive or trivialize OP points with red herrings.
I get the feeling you are taking it as a given that games are supposed to be balanced, without having asked yourself why developers are trying to balance their games in the first place: To make them fun for as many players as possible. There is no such thing as a Nobel Prize for balancing.
If fun was to be completely left out of the equation for the sake of balancing, the perfect solution would be to have all Heroes be identical. There you go, perfectly balanced.
The reason different Heroes exist is to add variety, i. e. fun. This variety is not limited to the people playing a specific Hero, but extends to those playing against and with them. The goal of trying to make all characters viable is to offer the best possible experience for the highest possible number of players.
You cannot make her mechanically easier because she requires no mechanical skill whatsoever.
Ana requires mechanical skill, Mercy doesn’t require any mechanical skill. Holding a mouse button is not a skill.
And she has all of these things.
Mastering holding M1/M2 is not something hard to do, no offense. My 12 year old sister plays Mercy effectively, it doesn’t require any skill. She could also pull 5 man rez easy - just hide and press Q. If she can do it, literally anyone can do it. That’s how unhealthy that mechanic was.
The only thing Valkyrie can’t out heal in this scenario is a Junkrat tire or Dragon + Grav combo. And Mercy could never out heal any of those.
You didn’t have any weaknesses with mass rez - none. Pressing a button for instant reward had no counter.
Already covered that point. Mercy requires no mechanical skill, you can’t make something easier when it’s not there.
Than they should play something that actually requires mechanical skill like Ana. Mercy never offered any challenges, she has always been a healing bot, holding M1/M2, zero mechanical skill required, her ult required to press a button. Valkyrie actually requires some positioning and situational awareness, her rez requires skill to pull off. Mercy skill floor and ceiling were raised, not lowered.
The idea that Mercy is now easier to play is completely wrong.
Never experienced that mate. I’ve turned the tide of battle plenty of times with Valkyrie without any issue.
You conveniently forget that Mercy was a solid pick for 12 seasons, 3 of which she was brokenly OP (and before that there was the mass rez SR abuse). Tuning down something broken is not only imminently desirable, it’s in your best interest.
I’m making Mercy work against diamond and master players so I will take that as anecdotal evidence on your part. I don’t have problems making Mercy work none whatsoever.
Are we seriously talking balance in arcade?
I guess rezzing a dead person back from the death is nothing to offer.
I just point the logical fallacy. It’s not a red herring, it’s logically not sound. You have an OP character for almost one year. Tuning that character down a bit and then giving back doesn’t change the fact that the character was OP before. And she was abused for SR gains before being OP. And she has always been a solid pick for 12 seasons. You can’t dismiss all that information and throw it out. That’s not trivializing anything.
Why? You don’t need the “fun” attribute to balance three different variables. It happens in science and psychology all the time, without fun ever being a factor in this equation. Games are not different - balancing is done in accordance to data, information and testing. Usually doing a multi-varied analysis.
This assumption you are making is of the correlation implies causation variety. Clearly, it would be easier to balance identical heroes - that’s redundant to even mention. It’s harder to balance heroes that have different abilities. Fun and balance are still separate things however. Obviously fun is a factor, but balance takes more priority over fun on the scale. The state of the game is more important. And even if I was to go along and play along - the fun of a part of Mercy mains (because not all Mercy mains feel the same way) shouldn’t trump over the fun of other Mercy mains and everyone else.
Even if mass rez was removed simply because it wasn’t fun (and that’s not what happened or the case) the needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few.
Blizzard literally said that Mercy’s rez was removed because it was ‘frustrating to play against’, so yes, that is what happened.
Already covered that myth so I’m not going to write a novel again, sorry. Just because Jeff is politically correct in the dev update, doesn’t mean that is the case. Mass rez was removed because it was an unhealthy mechanic that caused an unintended use like hide&rez. The community, the devs and pros agreed on it. And consequently, mass rez is gone.
Even if this was true, it doesn’t require a rework to fix it.
Yes, it does. Inb4 I get linked Titanium’s thread.
Give Mercy an E that allows her that encourages her to get value and be out more coughValkyriecough. Make Rez LoS, 0.8s cast time and damage reduction or make rez preemptive rez like Zilean does from LoL.
There, hide and rez is gone and we didnt even need some major rework to begin with.
She doesn’t require mechanical skill. But when she has a single beam only she relies on her OWN SKILLS OUTSIDE ON MECHANICAL SKILL.
Contrary to people who have a skill fetish, there is more to skill then just aiming.
The skills outside of mechanical skill, is what Valkyrie takes away from.
Yes, only to have Valkyrie rip it from her clutches and baby sit her.
It is more than just holding M1+M2 on her base kit.
Considering people have zero grasp on how to prioritize and beam juggle effectively. It is a skill that comes from learning her OUTSIDE OF mechanical skill.
Ever seen a Mercy who sticks their beam on a tank all game and you can beg them for healing and most of the time you will only get it when Valkyrie happens to be active.
And then you get Mercy’s who you practically never have to hit the “I need healing” button on, because WOAH IT SEEMS THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE AWARENESS AND GAME SENSE AND HAVE A BETTER GRIP ON HER BASE KIT.
A mechanically easy hero can still have other IMPORTANT AND NECESSARY SKILLS stripped from them. Valkyrie does this.
50hps is lower than Winston’s Tesla gun. That means Valkyrie currently cannot beat Winston’s base damage. 60hps was a break even point where it was even between the two.
People who had decent aim could easily deal more damage than 60hps could heal, so Valkyrie being an ultimate that is weak in terms of healing and causes people to group up results in a perfect opportunity to ult a team and without a defensive ult, that team is dead.
They could literally be aimed up by Mcree before they could even move and by the time they could, they were dead.
D.va bomb could do the same.
A team who could not coordinate themselves after the rez, died pretty much exactly where they just died.
A good Mercy kept track of enemy ults to make sure she didn’t end up rezzing into failure or just used it as tempo. There were unique choices and people actually learned ult economy which no one gives a flying damn about nowadays as they throw 3 ults at the same time in an engagement and don’t even kill the whole team. Those bad players deserve consequences.
And the requests for bringing back mass rez aren’t just revert as it was, people want Blizzard to actually bothering to balance it properly, like it never was.
As I covered, Mercy requires no mechanical skill but required other skills.
The idea is that the entry level heroes are designed to require next to none or low mechanical skill but still are allowed to get some value because they take skill to play outside of the mechanical.
Rein is considered entry level. Anyone can pick him up, but not everyone can master him. I can stand there and hold a shield, but melee is not one of my strengths. Along with that, my shield management and understanding on best ways and times to use and combos his ability are not great. In fact, I often am a detriment to my team by playing him. This results in me switching to Orisa because I have a much easier time playing her when the team wants a shield tank or Rein.
He is supposed to be easy but still has a lot to master about him.
If you don’t think that Mercy had her own challenges that came from best managing her weaknesses, etc. Than you clearly don’t understand much about Mercy.
Just because there were few buttons involved, didn’t make her take no skill. As I have said, there is more to the game than just mechanical skill.
If you are here purely because of mechanical skill, then I think you are playing the wrong game. This game was marketed towards casual players and that includes players who don’t enjoy things that are mechanically intensive but still desire to be challenged in some way. Older iterations of Mercy provided this, while Valkyrie takes it away.
I mean realistically, soldier is pressing M1, maybe M2 most of the match and pressing shift. Just with a little more aim, but you can shoot Mercy’s pistol with aim so aim is a factor on Mercy anyway.
I mean, considering doing damage earns you faster ult charge than healing does at this point, people may as well battle Mercy all the time because shooting in Valk often provides more value. Or you can just play Support Soldier, better gun and you can still heal team mates. I mean, that is where I am at now.