And this exactly confirms my point. The one and only season when Rein was not #1 was S5. Not S6, S7, S8 or S9.
Season 6:
http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/10/hero-meta-report-pc-oct-9-2017.html
Time to get over these dreadful 3 months of being #2 over 3 years of Overwatch history.
Debatable since she was out healing other healers but she got a buff to valk that puts her at 60 so evens out I guess
And his crazy pickrate is a problem when there are other options
Which are snuffed out as the other two options arenât good with, or against the heroes brigitte pulled in to this meta, even if you nerf Reinhardt, he will still be the right picks because the other two main tanks are basically non functional in the brig defined meta.
The problem is not Reinhardt, his pickrate is a symptom of brigittes strength if left unchallenged, which reinhardts unique kit is the only main tank kit of both helping and destroying brigitte.
Thatâs the deal, she is kind of a niche liability at lower ranks, which is exactly why sheâs not used. She doesnât have the healing throughput to be an effective healer, which is why sheâs replacing a DPS at higher ranks.
Honestly, the implication that a hero with a <4% pick rate is responsible for a hero having a >12% pick rate is mind boggling.
And that said 12% pick rate hero needs specific buffs against that, even more so.
No I am serious Jeff i know it hurts, but I think Rein could use some chiseling around the corners heâs been performing really good at.
Thatâs why I believe she needs a rework, if they raise her healing any more than it is on the current version of brigitte, she becomes more of a monster further enabling high health team compositions, and if they nerf her damage by any considerable amount that stops her from performing her function in harassing dive heroes, she becomes a hero pick who should actually be disabled from use entirely because it would be that hard of a throw pick. She is fundimentally broken and unrepairable through tweaks to fix her issues of filling her category, and she is breaking the meta by propping up tank compositions filling all three roles as a high TTK off tank / effective DPS hero capable of getting reliable picks / healing tank compositions well with AOE healing (given at a low rate but on high health heroes it stacks up considerably over time).
How do we fix this one without a rework >.> If it were to be fixed, it would be with interaction changes mostly rather than numbers tweaks. There would still be some ofcourse, but itâs a hard nut to crack if we want to keep her in the same role she currently is without a rework.
Prior to S10 double off-tanks were perfectly viable on ladder. Iâve won and lost countless games without main tank on one side and it never felt like the game is hopeless because of it. Now itâs Rein or bust justified by âbecause must have main tankâ.
Not necessarily since rein is good at non mobility comps being a must pick with his moving barrier which is why I ask for buffs to orisa at the same time to bring healthy competition and orisa counters brig anyway
honestly, it wouldnt be too dumb of a decision to change up some maps, specifically chokes, to make other tanks more viable without touching reinhardt.
Not sure if this a troll thread but I will bite.
There are 7 heroes in the tank category, of those only 3 are main tanks.
Reinhardt, Orisa and Winston.
Winston is the dive main tank, so he is used mostly for dive compositions.
Rein and Orisa are the anchor tanks, but Orisa is very immobile so she is more suited for defensive positions., but she is vurnerable to swarm attacks like goats or dive.
So why is Reinhardtâs pick rate so high?
Because dive is no more the prevalent composition and there is so little choice of main tanks to pick from.
Now go compare that to the dps category, that has 15 heroes with many choices for different situations. This is a more healthy number to see if one hero is overperfoming or not.
As far as Reinhardt goes, he is suffering greatly from the massive amount of cc in the game and damage power creep. He is the least fun character to play with, but he is necessary because there are no alternatives.
Go try playing Reinhardt and come back tell me how fun it was that 3/4 of the time you canât control your character.
In the OWL World Cup finals, where the top players compete, he had a healthy 33% pick rate despite Goats comp being the flavor of the season, now compare that to Dva 98% and Winston 57% in the tank category.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/9u247j/hero_pick_rates_world_cup_finals_nov_23/
i think thats an exaggeration but it is true that he is very counterable. he is not OP in that sense.
its important to keep in mind that theres so many different levels of play. in the OWL they play in teams that practice every day, as a full time job, as a team. they have 100% coordination so of course dive heroes like dva can be used much better.
but in a team of strangers, usually even without comms, reinhardt is just very convenient and strong, given the current balancing. his shield is easy to play with, he is straight forward and always right before your eyes.
i dont think we should add more tanks that fill the same role as reinhardt though. imagine having 2 heroes with huge mobile shields, but that are still different enough to warrant being seperate heroes AND not ending up overpowered when played together. maybe it can be done, but i dont think its easy or the best move right now.
i think IF we toned down reinhardt, we would also need to tone down some of his counters (seeing how doomfist and brig are gonna get nerfed, thats pretty much already on the way).
i hope the next main tanks dont synergise well with reinhardt, but are still good, so that his pickrate automatically goes down without nerfing him.
I wouldnât be opposed to that. Overall power level in this game needs to be toned down.
Well yes to him being good in static compositions, and yes to orisa NEEDING BUFFS. But if you put those two in a static composition war, orisa does outperform him, leaving a niche for Orisa, but because of her weaker kit static compositions suffer from simply being overwhelmed and unable to pose a proper threat to other strong compositions, Iâd call her a weak link.
But the thing is, brig also is too strong of a pick and is defining the meta, so even if you nerf rein, he will still be necessary in a composition to prop up brigitte and Zarya mainly. Orisa will still not be synergistic with brigitte, and will still be out of the meta. Brigitte is the outlier who needs reigning in to make reinhardt not be a necessity and allow other compositions to compete, at the same time as that, Iâd suggest Orisa gets the main tank gold standard treatment, and be given a higher projectile speed, and that 500HP standard because as it is, the things she is meant to be good at, simply donât translate because they can just melt her too quickly once they walk past the barrier. She is not very fortified at all.
It would make more sense to root out the cause of the issues instead of toning the symptoms down would it not? And while we are at it, buff the one Main tank that doesnât function at the level that the other compositions do, in a way that doesnât raise her shieldbreak potential since itâs still very good at contesting that area, but raise the reliability of the damage she puts out and make her less of a tin can that gets crushed by everything. That way the shield war levels donât change, but she gets a buff in the area she is most lacking in.
exactly this! i wish her barrier was more of a âim gonna throw this out for my teammates while i tank with my raw HPâ kind of thing
when i play her, i often feel like fortify is almost wasted on her specifically. shes behind her barrier 99% of the time, she can barely make use of it.
I sometimes force her where she doesnât belong because I love Orisa, and that has me crying inside >.< I feel that on so many levels.
That does not make for good game design.
Itâs not okay to have a hero be a âmust pickâ when heâs so unfun to play, being unfun doesnât justify him being powerful. Him being unfun should, logically put him in Z tier where no one cares about him so no one has to suffer the indignity of being forced into playing him. And being unfun does not mean it canât be overpowered.
All that said, the numbers simply donât add up that itâs Brigitte specifically making him unfun. Itâs the wider case of massive burst, and prevalence of âtank-busterâ reworks attempting to break his shieldâs dominance, but in turn reinforces the needs for his shield because players, Tank or otherwise, without shields melt even harder to the Tank busting burst being thrown around.
i think its a combination of a lot of things making him unfun.
his only ways of contributing to the game are:
if orisa gets stunned? she keeps her shield, and can start shooting again soon after. she can do things while behind the shield. she has a weapon that has close AND mid range strength, has the goo orb (halt) that can be fun and challenging, only her ult is kinda boring.
not saying orisa is stronger, just comparing the fun factor for both.
i think if rein could âdoâ more while behind his shield, he would feel more fun. but he is strong as he is. just that his strength is very⌠bland. his shield is not very interactive, he is slow while holding it, and his other abilities are super risky.
You can play any composition you like. There are no rules in place,but itâs common practice to have a main and an offtank due to their synergy together.
Rein with Zarya, Winston with Dva, Orisa with Roadhog and Hammond being the only wild card, because he is very different. Dva works with everything very well, but Winston is the main that synergises best with her.
Tanks are necessary for creating space and allowing your team to push or hold by absorbing damage for them.
There is far too much burst damage and one shots in the game, that if you play without a main tank, your other non mobile dps and support heroes will drop like flies.
If the pros figured out a better comp that didnât inlcude main or any tanks, we would be seeing comps without any.
Itâs the same reason you need healers. Without them you are probably not going to have enough sustain to succeed against a team that has ones.
rein is only picked so much because the heroes around him enable him to be so strong.
if brig wasnt so good (such as not being able to stun through shields) there would be far fewer good shatters. which might tempt alot of reins to go back to winston
there was a reason winston was picked so often pre brig. dive > rein comps (but only if they arnt enabled by a brig).
season 10 for instance
had double sniper
hanzo combod well with mercy (dmg boost op) and with zarya. zarya enables rein. zen combos fairly well with mercy and the 2 snipers
so we had our selfs the widow-hanzo-rein-zarya-mercy-zen âgrav dragonâ meta we saw in ladder play for a while. some said zarya was op, but it wasnt that zarya was op it was that she was surrounded by heroes that made her better.
now that grav dragon is less viable, this combo isnt a must pick. but sadly this also means brig based comps (like goats) are more prevelent thus rein is picked in almost every match up
i agree with the rest of your post, just confused what you mean here. if brig cant stun him through shield, how does that affect his shatter? or do you mean in a rein vs rein scenario, where brig stuns the enemy rein, and her ally rein shatters while the shield is down?