We know how to counter widow/hanzo, we just dont like it

General Discussion
21

I understand that some players may respond defensively to suggestions on countering Widowmaker, but I don’t believe that it’s fair to generalize all players in that way. There are certainly players who are willing to adapt their playstyle and try different strategies to counter her, but the issue is more about the overall impact that Widowmaker has on the game balance and enjoyment for all players.

While it’s true that using cover and flanking can be effective strategies against Widowmaker, the point is that these strategies require a higher level of caution and attention compared to countering other heroes. It’s not about whether other heroes should require the same level of caution, but rather that the amount of caution required to counter Widowmaker can feel disproportionate to the impact that she has on the game.

In addition, the argument is not just about disliking how to counter her, but rather the overall balance of the game. When one hero is able to dominate the game to the point of significantly impacting the enjoyment of the game for many players, it’s reasonable to consider whether that hero is too powerful and needs to be adjusted.

Finally, while it’s true that different heroes have different threat levels and rules of engagement, the issue with Widowmaker is that she can be very difficult to engage with without taking significant risks. This can result in a game where players are either forced to play around her or constantly at risk of being picked off by her, which can negatively impact the overall game experience.

22

Regardless, if a hero is supposed to be designed around dying more often, then they shouldn’t has such strong self defense.

Or they shouldn’t have instant kills.

23

I can copy-paste this underneath any hero from overwatch list with context if you’d like me to. But before I start doing it, here is the thing. This is game’s nature is that every hero is annoying, unfun to play against and whatever you dislike about them. The truth is that the variety they produce by creating new and “Unique” mechanics, force you to do something against it. Therefore, rock-paper-scissors gameplay has been born, here we go:

Read with Mickey Mouse voice in head only to understan the Bigger picture and how serious is the business here!

I play sombra/tracer and have fun but that mccree now flashbangs and right-clicks me, no fun anymore!
Blizzard: We take away flashbang!
Supports:
I am getting harassed by flankers, blizzard do something!
Blizzard: Buffs supports, nerf damage
Dps:
I can not beat mercy pockets, my damage is lower than her healing, and also damage boosted dps hero is way too strong!
Blizzard: Nerf genji (LOL)
Dps:
Okay, I will play widow/hanzo/sojourn, since any sustained damage is irrelevant, I guess…
Forum:
Nerf widow, not fun to play against! I want to afk on mercy/torb/junk/sym and not be threatened at all!
Tanks … (whispers in the dark) still coping about the anti-nade

PS: And there a vicious cycle goes. Should I continiue with a “Bigger picture” ?

2 Likes
24

Those things work wonderfully in low elos. Get to higher elos and you counter pick widow, go ball, or lose the game.

2 Likes
25

While it’s true that every hero can be frustrating to play against at times, that doesn’t mean we can’t discuss balance and potential changes to improve the game. The idea behind balancing heroes isn’t to make them completely unfun to play against, but to ensure that they have a reasonable counterplay and that no one hero is dominating the game.

Widowmaker, specifically, has a kit that is extremely powerful in the right hands and can be frustrating to play against for many players. That’s not to say that she should be completely nerfed into the ground, but rather that small adjustments could be made to make her less oppressive.

The idea behind the “rock-paper-scissors” gameplay is to have different heroes counter each other, but currently, Widowmaker has very few counters and can be dominant in many situations. By adjusting her kit, more heroes could potentially become viable counters to her, creating a more diverse and balanced game.

In short, balance discussions aren’t about making every hero boring to play against, but rather ensuring that each hero has reasonable counterplay and that the game is as fun and engaging as possible for all players.

26

Widow has a lot of more than reasonable counterplays
Widow is at no earth is dominating the game unless this is a smurf dominating metals.

She has no kit, she can shoot by standing still, pretty much afk, shoot once per 1.2 second from 60 meters max to get value of her only tool – oneshot. You get close, she is dead or has no space to play from.

If the Widow is in right hands, then the opposite team should be in right hands, this game is not 1v5, you know. If enemy team is dumb, lazy, or play after the beer evening, it is not widow’s design fault, but those who thinks that playing for “fun” is above competition.

I am sorry I am tired of repeating myself at this point… What’s your rank, peak, current, playtime, heroes, hours on them, peaks on them? It is important to remove any bias.
Let me introduce myself first
I started playing OW in season 9. Being a dedicated AWPer in cs 1.6 you can guess what I chose to play (Ta-da). Nope, not ta-da… I played her 50 hours in her best state (8s grapple, 0,9 oneshot charge time and 200 hp) and guess what…? I didn’t touch her anymore after season 9… Because no matter how good you are as widow, your team has lack of damage, you get a lot of problems on your butt being dived, and if you don’t play isolated or off angle you produce close to 0 value. And if you do play aggressive it is much easier to punish you than any other character in this game. Not even close to having fun…
Well, I am still a sniper, right?
Then I switched to playing hanzo, because one shot you know mobility and stuff. But found out really quick that consistency is a key, and random headshots won’t carry you games.
Consistency, utility and mb oneshots?
Therefore, I started playing Ashe in s13 (her release in November 2018) into double sniper meta and got my 1st GM with her against Widows and Hanzos, how so? Because when you chase competition then the fun would be extension! 4003 flat gm peak s16 Ashe otp. Peaked 4371 in season 17.
RIP Ashe
After over 4k hours on that hero I find out they have killed Ashe completeley instead of mercy pockets for some reason, but that is a different story. Moving on.
OW2 what to play to get the most value of?
Ashe damage and util is irrelevant in new realities of OW2, widow is also hard to get value of, hanzo is inconsistent, let’s try soldier, why not? It turns out that mobility, good damage and self sustain is the key to overwatch. Got GM5 on dozens of accounts dealing with sojourns, widows, ashes, hanzos, well… untill they are pocketed =)
Then it got me thinking, what character could be played to beat the pocket, that has good damage but better than s76’s? Something with self sustain but better to be able to 1v2 and also good util for the team?
Baptiste
3 hp bars via immort and shift, 25 damage per shot in a burst of 3 that comes out in 0.35 second. I can heal! Fantastic! I can 1v2 and 1v3 sometimes. I can play passive and healbot my team, I can go agressive and take off angles because even tank will struggle to kill me! Got to GM1 Bap only, repeat on multiple accounts (GM5-GM1) Never got to GM with widow or hazno. Did I have fun? Hell yeah! So, why coudn’t you? Now I wait the answers to all of my questions :wink: If you have read all this you are pogchamp already!

Phrase of the day and also core of this message : When you chase competition then the fun would be extension

3 Likes
27

Thank you for sharing your experience and insights with us. It’s clear that you have a lot of knowledge and expertise in playing various heroes in Overwatch.

However, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Widowmaker’s power level in the game. While it’s true that she can be countered by certain heroes and strategies, the fact remains that in the hands of a skilled player, she can be extremely powerful and dominate matches.

As someone who has reached Diamond 2 and peaked at Masters 4 with 2000+ hours of playtime, you must have encountered many skilled Widowmaker players who have been able to carry their teams to victory. It’s also worth noting that in professional Overwatch, Widowmaker is a highly contested pick and is often used to great effect.

While it’s important to acknowledge that different heroes have different strengths and weaknesses and that Overwatch is designed to have a rock-paper-scissors type of gameplay, it’s also important to recognize that some heroes are simply more powerful than others in certain situations.

3 Likes
28

And that should be a reward for the skilled player! Why do you want to take away the main point of this game from those who dedicate their time, effort to develop such skill, instead of admiring it, learn from it and compete which this game is meant to?

Yes and a lot of them lost games and win games against me. That’s the point of the game. They could win them all if I think following popular forums oppinions, otp Rein Flats, Projectile Main Samito and many more biased opinions. Sometimes you accept the challenge and learn by losing to win more after.

Often is a definition of inconsistency :wink:

And it depends on million factors considering the variety of interactions possible. Those who know these interactions better will have no problems against anything, and scapegoats are not needed in that case. Everyone has one in their closet being hones with self. (For me it is hamster :upside_down_face:)

1 Like
29

It’s boring and broken to have to deal with Lamp, Suzu, Pull, and Rez too. We should remove these things as they’re only skillless anyways. At least the Widow and Hanzo have to try and aim, the support role generally can keep the monitor off and unplugged and still get free value for existing. How boring is that?

30

Widow was played with the original dive comp/meta. Her strengths greatly overshadow her weaknesses and it’s much easier to support/peel for her than it is to dive her. Also, by the time it takes the dive characters to even get to her, she can take out multiple people.

31

That was also 6v6. In 5v5 she isnt part dive

32

While it can be frustrating to play against skilled Widow and Hanzo players, it’s important to remember that they are just one aspect of the game and can be countered with teamwork and strategy. Supports can position themselves in ways that make it difficult for the enemy snipers to take them out, tanks can create space to deny sightlines, and DPS can focus on taking out the enemy snipers. While it may require more caution and strategy than playing against other heroes, it’s a necessary part of the game and can lead to satisfying victories. It’s also worth noting that every hero requires a different level of caution and strategy, and it’s up to the players to adapt and play accordingly. Maybe the problem that people are having is that the game itself is becoming boring to them and maybe these people can play some other similar team based shooter game like apex. Maybe the problem is not the concept of a sniper in overwatch in general but rather that these individuals are bored with overwatch as a game. There are many team-based shooter games available, each with their own unique mechanics and gameplay styles. Exploring different games can be a great way to find new challenges and experiences that might be more engaging for the player.

However, it’s also important to note that sometimes boredom with a game can be temporary, and taking a break from the game and coming back later with a fresh perspective can also help reignite interest and passion for the game.

33

Hanzo is actually a relatively good counter to Reaper. Reaper needs to be close to do damage and Hanzo is the most deadly at the range Reapers stay at when attacking.

I’m not even particularly good at Hanzo and all it takes is one shot to Reaper’s rather large head and he’s gone. Hanzo can also jump backwards to reduce how much damage Reaper does.

34

I understand your point of view, but I believe that every hero should have a fair chance in the game. It’s not about taking away the reward for skilled players, but about balancing the game so that every hero can be viable and contribute to a team’s success.

When one hero is consistently overpowered, it can make the game feel frustrating and unfair for other players. This can also discourage players from experimenting with different heroes and playstyles, which ultimately limits the potential for creativity and innovation in the game.

It’s true that some heroes are better suited for certain situations, but I believe that every hero should have a role to play in the game. By promoting diversity in hero picks and balancing their abilities, we can create a more dynamic and enjoyable experience for all players.

1 Like
35

It is exactly about taking away the reward, because there is nothing else to be rewarded as widow. Followed by this :

Hero is not overpowered, she has one power and to feel that power you have to spend at least 3k hours on that hero and still be inconsistent with it because you are not a robot.

Frustration is a byproduct of poor mental set which has nothing to do in competitive FPS. Mentality is also the skill each player should develop.

The creativity is one of the keys to counter widow. But that’s different creativity I guess.

Every hero has a role to play the game already, but you can’t play every hero for every situation, something is meta here something is meta there and widow is not any special in this.

Ngl, I feel ChatGPTed, are you a real person? :grinning:

1 Like
36

While it’s true that Widowmaker requires a lot of skill to be used effectively, the issue is that she can be disproportionately powerful in certain situations, leading to frustration for other players. This is why balancing heroes is important for the health of the game.

As for discouraging experimentation with different heroes and playstyles, having an overpowered hero can actually have the opposite effect. Players may feel forced to pick that hero in order to be competitive, limiting their own creativity and innovation in the game.

Ultimately, the goal should be to create a game where every hero is viable and can contribute to the team in their own way. Balancing heroes helps to achieve that goal, and while it may be frustrating for those who have invested a lot of time into playing a particular hero, it’s for the greater good of the game as a whole.

As for me being ChatGPT, I’ll leave that to you for interpretation. (No).

1 Like
37

She still can be played in dive perfectly fine in 5v5. On multiple maps, she’s able to sit outside of every dive character’s immediate “dive” range and pop 300 damage shots into them and/or their team way before they can reach her. Even when/if they do manage to reach her, her team is closer and it’s much easier to peel for her or at least keep her alive long enough for her to kill another person while getting dove on.

38

problem being by dealing with widow like this you are abandoning your team & leaving them out#'d for a time (and if u fail to kill widow you wasted your effort)

issue isnt you “can’t” its issue of “you have to regardless” & there are cons to having to do so that no other hero has.

39

I guess i just dont see her cause a good ball doesn’t care how far away you are. A distracted team and a dived widow is a win imo

40

same with phrhamercy… pick hitscans and dva is soo bored