Wanna have a discussion about skill

Competitive Discussion
21

your thinking is pretty flawed, you want a world where you can simply outplay anything as long as you are good enough on a certain character. skill isnt just limited to how you play your character but how you deal against enemies.

in the end you just spend a massive amount of time left clicking on heads, dva has to master tracking, ulting angles, matrix positioning, matrix usage, positioning, not feeding enemy ults, diving supports with cordination. you are comparing 2 completely different classes that focus on different things.

you know a dva matrix charging you is a bad thing, and the dva knows matrix charging you is a good thing, so why do you complain about it? its equal skill, you try to avoid it and they try to do it. that makes you equally skilled. and you cant quantify skill by hours played, ive seen people with 20 minutes outpreform someone with 1000 hours

22

Not true. A really good mercy can woo out that gun and wreck people…

Sorry but this “no skill” argument had been beaten to death. No matter how nicely people put it in a long thread opening it still comes down to they think they are better at the game and deserved to be able to have an easier time killing the other respected character.

It really is the dumbest point of view…

23

Here’s what I think.

There comes a point a character requires the least amount of key presses, mouse clicks, and priorities, but is more reliable than another character that requires more of what I mentioned, is a sign of imbalance. How imbalanced it is becomes a problem. Remember when Mercy was too strong? Remember D.Va’s first rework? Remember Ana’s Nanoboost on Rein where he could basically 1v6 and walk away effectively unscathed? Sure, I’m stretching examples, but here’s the thing.

I guess what I’m saying is that there are heroes in the game, though I believe more evident on the defense (should be attack, though… well, a good half of them) and supports, is that the ones that are mechanically more demanding to play are much easier to counter than their less mechanically demanding counterparts.

24

I have a long post, see the spoiler if you want it. Non-spoiler=TLDR

It annoys me how OW seems to be going more and more “less skill required”.
To me less skill mainly means their main “skill” is positioning and positioning only. But every hero requires positioning skills. Many “low skill” heroes also often have little need to worry over cool downs. Mercy Guardian Angel is on such a short cool down she can zip about the map. Junkrat gets two mines so he almost always has at least one ready to go. Not to mention they require little to no aim.

“Low Skill” also means someone can generally pick up the character and do good. Maybe not quite play them at your current rank, but close enough that you don’t drag the team down majorly. Need a Mercy and anyone can play her for even if they hadn’t before they know the general way she’s played at their rank. Need a 76/McCree for that Pharah though and no one plays hit scan/long range characters? Well good luck!

Summary

I’m fine with low skill heroes being strong, it’s just not fine when they’re easily stronger than high skill heroes. A diamond Mercy or Moira shouldn’t be able to outplay Ryu’s Ana for example, but that’s basically how it is currently. And I get that some people play with disabilities. I’ve heard people note they have various vision issues (I know someone actually who can’t see well enough to aim, so always plays Mercy or Sym), or another disability. But the entire game doesn’t need to be catered to them and that is what it is feeling like right now. That Blizzard is catering the game to low skill

Supports: Ana just becoming less viable. More and more shields being put in which makes her less effective. Mercy getting super buffed, and even after nerfs is still arguably better by far unless you’re a god(dess) at Ana. Not to mention Moira who can outheal Mercy, has great survivability, and can often also outdamage many DPS (especially at lower levels) as another easy to play character. And Lucio is being tossed to easy mode as well now? No need to learn how to wall ride or be effective with ammo conservation/boop usage! Soon they’ll just let Zen orb everyone at once. And Brig… I like her but can’t deny she’s another lower skilled character.

DPS: Junkrat is prime of the buffs they gave him when he’s notorious little aim character. Shoot in the general direction and bam! Can’t say for certain what the slightly smaller blast radius for his normal attack will do, but I doubt it’ll hurt him much. Sombra was turned into hard to counter as well making hack really easy to get off (even with the changes), letting her exit ticket last even longer, and her hack being able to counter nearly everything while on a fairly short cooldown. At least they were smart enough to revert the Bastion OP changes after about a week. Oh, and Tracer. One of the harder characters to be good at with an extremely hard ult to use. Gotta make that even tougher to use now because THAT was feeling unfair despite people whiffing it all the time.

Its funny for OW is trying to be an esports game. High end competitive showing off with their Overwatch League and all. And yet people think esports and they generally think high end skill. Meanwhile they seem to be trying to cater the game more and more with less skill/high reward characters (aka: the lower skill/often more casual gamer).

If this keeps up all we’ll be watching in OWL is a bunch of people holding M1 or M2 and facing the general direction of the enemy team.

Aliervo Can’t speak for why others say “low skill”, but when I state it I generally mean this. Basically Mercy for example is constantly said “low skill” but then people cry it’s not right. After all Mercy needs to think about her positioning, who is low on health, of those low on health who should she heal first, or maybe who to rez and if going for that rez is good or not (should she save it for another character, is it a risky rez, is said risky rez worth the risk), etc. Compare that to Ana though. She also needs to think about her positioning. Even more so actually as she can’t just guardian angel away. She also needs to ponder who is low on health, who to heal first. She can’t rez but who to use the healnade on (or should she hold that for someone else, or maybe even herself). She also needs to be able to aim well enough to hit her targets the majority of the time. As powerful as sleep is be able to hit that and know when to use it then pray her team doesn’t wake said player up unless they can secure the kill. She has to think about when she should reload as it really sucks as Ana to be stuck reloading while watching one of your teammates health dropping. If an enemy is constantly jumping you you have to hold the grenade specifically for that, and pray ou can land your sleep dart or else you’re probably screwed (Mercy meanwhile can dash around allies as long as they are line of sight).

Basically to me a “low skill” hero generally has their main worry only be on decent positioning, and EVERYONE has to worry about positioning. Low skill have little or no need for aim, little or no need to worry about at least most their cooldowns.

Also Moira I look at not because she can 1v1 most in the game. It’s that she can easily outheal even Mercy most games, meanwhile also often taking a medal not just in elims but damage as well. She gets her ult extremely fast as well. For your scenario she can fade away. She can toss a heal orb at her team until she chases Genji off. She can toss a damage orb out to chase him off faster or kill him and join her team more quickly. I’ve seen low masters Moira frequently chase off a top 100 Tracer because between her heal orb and easy to aim damage that includes self healing she’s basically impossible to kill. And it doesn’t take long before said Tracer has to peel away for health themselves.

25

Are you telling me if you played nothing but Mercy in season 10, by the end of the season you would be in GM?

I didn’t think so. And before you say “give me more than one season”, at that point you would be into learning the character rather than just picking up such an ‘easy’ character and being good.

I don’t play Mercy because I’m terrible with her. Mercy is the focus target of the entire enemy team. She has to position with that constantly in mind. Mercy is incredibly unforgiving when it comes to positioning.

So here is the challenge for you "no skillers’, go pick up any of the heroes you feel are “no skill” and play them to GM level within a season. By your own arguments, you can do it.

Your arguments only show that you don’t know the characters you consider “no skill” well enough to play them well.

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26

i’m gold/plat level. i do better with brigitte after 5 hours than i do with tracer after 100+. it’s sickening. brigitte is just so much easier to use and more forgiving of mistakes. it literally is like playing he game on easy mode in comparison to other heros.

a character like that is what i consider to be “low skill”. it doesn’t really matter how easy it is to aim with her. it’s the fact that you can do so much with her so easily and have so much larger an impact on the game than you can with a hero that you’ve practiced for so long

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27

A tracer with 100 hours should know not to go near a mccree off cooldown. I know people want to think that non mechanical heroes are put in as consolation prizes for noobs but it genuinely broadens the possibilities and tactics in the game.

There’s also a huge mix of gamesense and ability usage with all the heros. A mechanically good widowmaker is scary, but a widowmaker that is a bit slower but knows exactly where to be at the right time and just click as people run past can be devastating too.

Every high skill hero has a non mechanical cheese method to them too but they’re all useless without a bit of brains. You need to know who to hit, when to hit them and where to be. Tracer shoots you in the butt when you’re distracted, blinks in front of you then blinks back to finish you off. Genji double jumps and uses his M2 cone attack around someone at melee range to screw up their aiming. McCree hides in a cupboard and flashes and fans the hammer. Widows like I mentioned can use prediction, preaim and a mine for wall hacks.

But those heroes are also very high potential if they’re combined with excellent mechanical skill. There are other miniboss heroes that can be complete shenanigans if they’re not out positioned or directly countered. Bastion, Torb, Brigitte, Pharah. I don’t see the harm in having those. They have a lower skill cap and either work well or fail miserably. And yet there are people who can do all kinds of work with them at their full potential by being smart. We’re all getting the feel for the brigitte miniboss stuff but the consensus seems to be starve her of heals by hitting her at range. Everyone will eventually adjust and she’ll end up a niche pick.

28

cs go is not all pure aim , in fact i would say in cs go aim is like 40% , 20% positioning 20% movement . 20% map knowledge

29

And yet when Mercy got her Super Buff those low end Mercy Mains suddenly flew up the ranks. Many non-Mercy players suddenly started playing her and also flew up the ranks.

Top 500s HATE when the Devs take a low skill character and make them really OP like they had with Mercy and Junkrat because people will climb much higher than they should. Then they start getting games with Mercy and Junkrat one tricks that somehow make it into GM when their positioning skills are maybe diamond or even plat. And when it ends up a top 500 Mercy like EeveeA on one side and someone who just abused the OP new Mercy on the other, the side with EeveeA will almost always win. Though in reality it often ends up both sides have people who got up there on the OP Mercy; usually multiple of them.

Also if Mercy wasn’t “easy mode” she would not be one of the prime used hero when someone is trying to boost another player well above the rank they actually belong in.

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30

I want to participate but, I’m lazy so – I’ll quote one of my old topics relating how I view “skill” in OW.

There are some interesting opinions in that thread (it is old, no need to bump).

31

Overwatch is a game built on team comp, counters, and ultimates. The “no skill hero” argument is silly.

Counters - Every hero has a role. A “no skill hero” like junk serves a purpose just like widow. Each hero has a counter, some more than others. If a junkrat is spamming you into submissions Pharah, widow, Hanzo are pretty hard counters for him and they can get on the high ground easily. This leads into team comp

Team Comp - team comp is the foundation for OW. You have to adjust your team accordingly. If you adapt and adjust, you have a better chance of winning.

Ultimates - this is the biggie. The difference between a W and an L is heavily contingent on ultimate use. If you use them wisely, you Increase your chances of winning.

32

I played the original CS at the equivalent of GM level. I haven’t played CS:GO but I assume it’s basically the same. I’d go even further and say aim was the least important thing. Positioning and tactics far more important, as is the case in OW as well.

33

People need to stop exaggerating how "easy"mercy is in in GM play. Do you honestly think they would get to GM without being boosted while having plat positioning and game sense? REALLY come on you cant be serious.

there is such a big difference between those bracket a random GM team will immediately see the person that is out of position and immediately pounce on them.

Look Gold is terrible for all intensive purposes seeing that is where I normally play. Try having bronze positioning in gold and see what your life expectancy is. Really people need to stop with these ridiculous exaggerations of GM players with plat positioning. They aint gonna be GM for long.

34

A difference is in GM to get that Mercy they have to get past a bunch of other GMs. The protection of one weak link player on a generally easy to use character is at least going to be done much better by said GM team.

In other words the detrimental cost of a boosted Mercy player is going to be lessened by the general skill of the rest of the team.

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36

How about a third non-elitist dbag camp that says:
ALL heroes require skill to play, just different sets of skills.

Why does everyone only equate skill to pointing a gun or getting kills?

Let’s use the classic “no skill” hero as an example,

Mercy needs to have great game sense and excellent positional awareness as she is punished more harshly then other heroes because she cannot defend herself.

Don’t confuse a hero that is often picked by low skill players with a no skill hero.

I have seen Mercy’s that are unkillable all while keeping the entire team healed. So that takes no skill, but falling off a ledge and hitting Q on reaper does huh?

Try avoiding a good genji or tracer while healing and rezzing and tell me if takes no skill.
I have seen many HORRIBLE Mercys, if she, or any hero was truly “no skill” you wouldn’t see that as rolling your face across the keyboard would get you good stats.

All heroes require skill, just different ones in different amounts.

Tanks need to blend aggressiveness with not overextending. They need to know when to hunker down and when to create space. They do not need to memorize every back hallway, the location of all the healthpacks and other things that are vital to a dps flanker like a Tracer for example.

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37

To me, once you take away all the common factors (Positioning, Ability CD Management, Ult usage, Map knowledge, optimal/un-optimal circumstances, exc…) between hero’s, you are left looking at mechanical skill and application of common factors.

All hero’s require the common factors and talking about them is really pointless except for the extreme cases.

“Skill of application” would be like saving a Flash Bang to interrupt a Reaper ult or Hog heal.

“Mechanical skill” would be the ability to hit said abilities accurately.

Lets make a comparison;

Lets use Sym since she is a hot topic right now. Places turrets, requires some ‘skill of application’ since putting them in easy to kill places is just gonna get them destroyed, but past that have no mechanical skill requirement since they do everything else themselves.

From this we can gather that yes some form of skill is required, but past that not really.

Lets look at Soldiers healing beacon, you place it where people need healing and it heals them, there is nothing really past that.

I would argue that it requires less skill than a Sym turret.

But when you look past individual abilities, I prefer to look at things at an individual level, but understand depending on subject it may be needed to look at as a whole.

38

Really? If that’s the case, why do we never see ana over mercy or bridgette in overwatch league or high level games? Because she’s trash compared to them. Why take the risk of ana, who can get no value if played bad, or decent value if played good, when you can play moira and get decent value if played bad, and good value if played well? There isn’t one.

What are you talking about? There are skill discrepancies between characters (ex: a plat widow can play junk at a high level) but your example doesn’t make sense. I don’t have the game sense of a gm, or the positioning, or the aim ect. Playing mercy might get me higher sr due to not needing the mechanical skill, but that doesn’t mean i instantly become better in every other regard.

My point is that if a plat player gets more value out of mercy than out of ana, considering that person can play both well, there’s a problem. The harder character should be better, or there’s no reason to play the harder character in a competitive environment (so putting aside if you have more fun playing one over the other). People have yet to address this part of the argument.

39

Sure, I’ll address it.

Better is relative. How should she be better? Should she be better in the same comps, maps, against the same opponents? Always?

All that matters is that in some situations she is better, and in some situations she is worse and that character will be played.

If Ana worked better with or against certain tanks/dps characters, you would have an incentive to play Ana over Mercy in order to have a more functional team despite the slightly higher mechanical skill needed.

40

yeah pretty much same for cs go , people think that because you dont have stuff like “Healers” or “tanks” in cs go means cs go is only about aim , so far from the truth