Valkyrie will be inherently useless in OW2

Oh no I meant the one a few months ago ^^

And yeah she was used on this one which I found weird, especially cuz it didn’t look like her Shield Bash change he talked about was implemented. Maybe the pros were playing on an old build

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Y’all are trying to balance a game that’s not even out lol. There’s like a 1% chance that they don’t make any changes to mercy

Not necessarily, people use it in fights 5v6 it still does something

The whole dps role got buffed, which is a nerf, and the support role buff really didn’t do anything to mercy. So, yeah, she already got two nerfs before ow 2 even came out. I doubt a burst heal on e would make her op.

Should I add that her burst heal needs to be in 5 meter range?

I kind agree.

I’d honestly like to see her get 2-3 charges of rez during valk but it’s ranged like a sym orb (so it could still be blocked etc).

Add some more complexity to her ult instead of just holding down m1 or m2 letting it do all the work. Or of course, going all battle mercy (which mostly only works in niche situations).

not all heroes are sustain damage and not all burst thresholds are meaningfully changed by damage boost.
there’s a point whereby TTK is so low whereby damage boost doesn’t mean much.

:eyes: Why I Have Yet to Not Despise Mercy's Current State
i.e. there’s plenty complaints about valk rn in the current state of the game in terms of how bad it is.

Valk is already more about dmg boosting than about the healing, 60hps is like a beefed up amped lucio passive, it doesn’t really make the team more durable

beat charges fast tho wdym

No one is bursting your entire team down dude.

Doesn’t do much? In a mirror its the difference between winning and losing.

I hate to say it but Anyone complaining about valk is stupid. It’s decent. It’s not great and it’s not awful. it charges fast enough for it to be used on cooldown and everyone seems to skip over just how much survivability mercy gets from her ult.

No it really doesn’t. It’s one of the slowest charging ults in the game.

yall cant lie tho, even tho Valk is a good ultimate, it’s still 2nd last to being the most unfavourable ultimate (w/ Moira ult being dead last) within the entirety of the support roster :coffee::frog:

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maybe i’m just good at farming it

Maybe. The issue is that tye best way to play lucio is either as a speed bot or as a flanker. Neither of which really lead to much ult charge unless you’re just hitting tanks all day.

  1. various damaging ults say otherwise
  2. it’s 2021, thought we all understood the importance of how 1~2 picks will spell the end of the team fight even despite valk by now.

because in a balanced state of the game (or heck not even, just in a non highly skewed meta state of the game) mirror matches will be ever so frequent /s
again, there’s a point whereby TTK is so low whereby damage boost doesn’t mean much because it’s not meaningfully changing thresholds.

it is objectively awful and objectively has very little self agency for value even in comparison to other support abilities.

because it really isn’t much extra on top of what she already has in her base kit, not to mention overshadowed by the actual value from the ult being so easily overwhelmed or nulled regardless of whether you use it defensively or offensively. like so what if you managed to be the last one standing if the team fight is still lost and you now have to walk/fly back to spawn and wait for teammates to come back anyways.

give us an example.

thats my point dude… valk helps secure kills. its a flat damage buff. if youre team is dying first then they are bad. its the fault of the ult.

balance doesnt exist. there will never be a situation where there is not an objectively best comp.

the game revolves around mirrors dude. im really not sure what youre trying to say here.

it doesnt matter how low the ttk is, faster is faster.

you just described mercy as a whole. shes designed to be an enabler.

its 3 axis movement dude. full flight. with unlimited range ga.
you are vastly understating how much she gets out of her ult.

how exactly are you negating a full team damage boost in a way that couldn’t be used to increase ttk of a regular fight?

see now, thats where youre wrong. its not about being the last one alive, irs about being alive to get value from the full team damage boost.
you either draw fire and get extra value or you get a full team boost uncontested.

tire, death blossom, tact visor, etc.
and other ults plus basic abilities secure kills better (heck they do it directly) both now and will be in OW2 whereby they’re decreasing TTK.

and no, you can’t absolve valk from blame from the team dying first if it’s literally not adding/doing enough to let it get more value whether if that’s preventing such deaths or making the team even faster of getting something better out before they die.

like this is so blatant whenever the enemy team uses pretty much any ult (whether support or not) in response to a valk it overwhelms, not trades, overwhelms whatever valk can provide. not to mention how it’s also easily overwhelmed without needing to use ults as well because it’s so easy to force the mercy in valk to heal with low hps for an ult for long periods of valk taking away the main value (boost).

if it’s so easily countered, can you really fault the team being bad instead of valk simply being bad? NO.

and before you start trying to strawman in claiming “oh you just want valk to be a team save ult like zen trans/lucio beat/etc.” no. it can be a dps ult like jenos’s from paladins or a zoning ult for I care. the simple point being made here is that valk is simply bad as an ult ability.

I’m sorry, but do we have a strict meta rn whereby everyone’s playing the same specific comp? don’t think so. hence the point I’m making.
are you saying that you expect or want the balance team to aim for only 1 comp to be meta in balance to give weight to your argument?

>me: “there’s a point where it barely adds anything and there’s often no change in speed to kill”
>you: “it doesn’t matter, it’s still faster”

:thinking:

do you what’d be even faster? actually shooting with a damaging weapon fire for most weapon fires. of which is getting buffed in OW2.

ah yes because the various other supports that have much more self agency over their respective value totally aren’t enablers at all /s

except a good mercy can achieve sufficient 3 axis movement without valk.
and no it’s not unlimited ga range, it’s 60m.

or you’re simply overstating what valk realistically achieves. like you even got GA range in valk wrong.

  1. team gets killed first because the enemy chose to use any of their ults or got forbid they just land shots
  2. the team receives a high enough degree of damage which it’d be throwing for mercy to not heal during valk. of which is a really low bar to meet considering she only heals 60hps which’d need her to be more proactive about keeping allies alive.

except you’re assuming that there’s no scenario whereby either you need to stop boosting to keep someone alive, or your team simply got wiped regardless. both of which are highly common scenarios which you’re adamant on neglecting.

Tire is meh, blossom can cancelled, tax visor is kinda bad.
All of them can be avoided through good positioning.
If someone is getting more than two with any of those ults then your team fed.
I’d take a damage boost over death blossom any day of the week.

Both teams die equally fast. If my team does 30% more damage then the enemy die 30% faster. If that 30% can be avoided so can the regular damage of a team fight.

I hard disagree with the vast majority of this.
The only part I agree with is how easy it will be to force out valk to be used defensively.
The rest of what you said though, I straight up don’t understand how you came to the conclusions you did.

Valk isn’t bad. It might be worse than other ults but that doesn’t make the ult bad.
If your team is dying first despite having a damage buff then no, it straight up is their fault for hitting less shots.

Don’t try to put words in my mouth dude.

In GM yeah we kinda do dude.
Sometimes it changes per map and sometimes you get a opt but for the most part it’s ball paired with hog zarya or diva. And since tanks are basically all that matter in the current state of thr game the rest of your team can basically play whatever they like but there is still an objectively best comp. The only reason we don’t run full mirrors is because every game comes down to tank diff so you might as well have some fun while your value is defined by a different role.

I’m saying that no matter what, there will be 6 heros that are better than the others.
If the devs achieved the impossible and every heron had the same peak value then the best comp becomes whatever is easiest to play.

Until we have numbers for the damage a support hero csn give out, you cannot claim that with any certainty.
There’s a reason mercy is played as a pocket pot and it’s because damage boost is more valuable than the damage / utility brought by other off supports.

Ah yes, taking thinga to their logical extremes instead of formulating a real argument.

  1. No, mercy can not achieve full 3 axis movement. She would require literally infinite ga targets to achieve the same freedom of movement.
  2. 60m is practically unlimited. There is no situation where a team fight is taking place over a larger area.

Its possible but when your argument relies on correcting my exaggeration of ga range despite the range only mattering during a teamfight that will physically never take place in an area where 60m isn’t effectively infinite, then I’d argue that you’re looking for things to correct and the thing you caught wasn’t all that great.

This goes both ways. Valk only makes the shots that are landed do more.

So the team fed and mercy had to use her ult in a poor way? That’s not the ult being bad dude, that’s the players.

Okay, how does any of that make the ult worse? I’ve won fights where the enemy threw 6 ults at us, does that mean all 6 of the enemy ults are bad abilities? No it’s means they fed.

I’ve honestly used it for both. If the whole team has taken some poke damage and has gotten low in the team fight, I’ll pop Valk to heal everybody at once to ensure nobody dies from any incoming damage.

On the opposite side, I’ll Valk as a fight starts and use it for damage boost to help wipe the enemy team.

Valk is probably the most versatile ult in the game, as you can use it at MANY situations throughout the game and still get value from it and that it has multiple purposes on when people use it and why.

Will some situations be better to use it than others? Of course! But my argument is just the versatility of the ult.

I would personally have to disagree with this statement. All supports except Moira are seeing a very healthy pick rate, while Mercy is sitting at the lower end of the healthy pick rates for this month. If Mercy being strictly damage boost bot was more effective than the other supports, she wouldn’t be the 5th most picked support (out of 7). She obviously fluctuates in pick rate, but I mean currently.

Not to mention, a while ago when I did the calculations, Mercy’s average elims AND boost assists combined equalled the same amount of elims as the next lowest elims support, who was Ana. It was actually slightly lower, but not even a full elim difference.

Her damage boost AND personal damage combined also did not even equal HALF of the next lowest damaging support, Ana (again).

Damage boost doesn’t provide as much value as people think. Her stats don’t support it. Mercy is a very versatile hero who isn’t forced to play one specific way to be effective (pocket bot). She has many ways she can play and still be effective.

of which can be said about boosted damage on top of the various more counterability valk has in comparison. the fact that various other ults overwhelms (not trade, overwhelms) valk simply is a testament as to how bad of an ult it is.

support ults: most of them outsustain whatever valk can dish out (boosted damage or in terms of sustain), and likely the fight would’ve ended by the time their ults are over —> valk overwhelmed. for nano and window, valk simply ain’t out sustaining those.

damage and tank setup ults: valk 60hps ain’t out sustaining dps ults nor focus fire from the setup and boosting in those situations basically means nothing other than going into respawn timer quicker —> valk overwhelmed

zoning ults: less chains being able to to be connected —> easier to get picks off team which valk can’t do much about —> valk overwhelmed.

if you can recognise how easy it is to force a valking mercy to heal instead of boosting, resing, or pistolling, simply because of disparity in damage vs her heal numbers + only capable of only doing 1 at a time to counter it, it really shouldn’t be hard to see how enemy ultimates (you know… supposedly strong abilities to do what they do) would further be easier to overwhelm valk.

if it’s worse than the majority of the ults in the game to the point of being so easily overwhelmed, then it’s simply just a bad ult.

or maybe the reason the enemy team is killing your team faster despite your valk boost is because they have something better than a chain boost which sacrifices a support worth of healing to help them kill you better than vice versa :eyes:

like your logic there is flawed because you’re trying to argue valk is good via an argument that insinuates that any replacement would be worse (i.e. circular argument).

I’ve had this convo many times with other people and they often go that way so excuse me from trying to pre-emptively trying to shoot down any attempts of a strawman.

>argues that 30% chain boost means something under mirror match up circumstances
>also argues that there’s a strict meta comp rn despite all the variability in 2/3 roles (1 of which includes supports) and the logic used is that “only tanks matter”

so

  1. you apparently can’t even decide logically whether it’s meaningful or not
  2. evidently mirrors aren’t a thing unless highly unbalanced.
  3. again, you’re acting like there’s nothing else from another hero that could be better at getting kills instead of a +30% damage boost - 1 support worth of healing.

:eyes: how damage stats (and boosted damage stats where applicable) from ana, bap, zen, and other supports are higher than mercy’s amp’ed damage stats rn.

:eyes: how they’re buffing damage for OW2.

:eyes: how brig and lucio are being picked more than mercy this month.

except I didn’t take it to the extremes since it’s a direct implication from your argument. such an implication being false which discredits your argument.
recap:

i.e. you defined an “enabler” to be having characteristics of having little self agency for value and you specifically defined mercy to fall under that label.
then following your logic, supports that have more self agency for value (which non-mercy supports do compared to her), clearly fall outside of that label.

don’t blame me if your arguments have implications that contradict facts. ._.

emphasis on “sufficient” there for you.

please don’t ignore the various very valid, fact based, arguments that have been presented thus far:

  • many other ults overwhelm valk
  • very little self agency over value contrary to the large majority of ults (even when comparing to support ones)
  • simply very easy to counter/overwhelm valk overall due to how easy it is to force the mercy to heal with the low easily burst-through-able 60hps valk has.

which is better at securing or salvaging a fight, nanoblade or valk-blade? supercharger or valk? trans or valk? window or valk? etc.
in all of the comparisons, the non-valk options are better as they allow more burst (whether damage or sustain) which are more likely to achieve more value and have higher potential and do so in a way that finishes the fight before valk is finished.

except various other ults actually can shift a bad situation into a salvaged/neutral or good one. unlike valk…

let’s start off from the “need to heal” scenario.

valk heals is 60hps. it’s literally lower than moira’s primary hps and even she needs combine that with heal orb to get some burst heals in from time to time. it’s simply low esp for an ult. it’s simply poor value on top of the fact that time spent healing = time spent away from boost which is the main value from valk.

and heck, it’s simply not hard to force that scenario out at all. like just look at how often moira needs to heal and you have a pretty decent approximation of how often mercy in valk needs to heal.

and this leads us to the team simply got wiped scenarios. given how easy it is to force a valking mercy to heal and how low its hps is —> easy to burst through, it means it’s easier to kill the team compared to if another ult was used instead (i.e. ones that either provides more burst sustain or more burst to kill… which is pretty much the rest of them).

and unlike your argument that’s based on an anecdote, this is based on literally what those other ults provide factually.