Don’t be willfully obtuse.
In this sense, describing “an X character” means that the X is the primary way to get value from the character at high level. You can “brawl” with Brigitte, but it is no longer the method of getting value from the character.
Arguing “Well, this character technically CAN do X, therefore they’re an X character” is like claiming that Symmetra is a sniper just becuase she technically can kill a character from across the map.
Again, don’t be obtuse.
How much bulk does a Support-healer need to go against entire teams with Rally available at a moments notice? It’s pretty darn clear that even giving Brigitte a minor amount of health on top of that armor bulk was pushing it over the line. But feel free to continue to ignore that and be completely lost on why removing the health was necessary.
Wasn’t disagreeing.
Doesn’t work like that. If you put out an argument, you’re expected to receive critique on it regarding how persuasive it is. If it’s supported by facts and strong logical consistencies it’ll hold up to scrutiny. The point is that when someone comments against your arguments and breaks them down, you need to commit to a better argument or find out how to come up with some better ways of communicating ideas and thoughts.
The whole process is designed to help you become better at this. Consider everyone else here playing Devil’s Advocate; don’t take it personally.
This is kinda of hilarious because when you get down to it, Brigitte is one of the top healers in the game - especially when she could provide armor.
Players talk about how her healing is on the lower end of the averages - usually lower than Mercy/Moira - but don’t account for the armor provided which is, not only more valuable the straight health, but easily accessible. When count the numbers correctly, putting weighted totals together, Brigitte was healing as good as or better than even the top bulk-healing Supports.
Sound Barrier is similar, and provides substantially more, but it also has a much shorter duration and harsher decline, lasting at most, 7 seconds. Armor from Rally lasts 30 seconds, and Brigitte was providing 75 for 5 seconds at the time.
Even now, Brigitte remains one of the best healers in the game.
Depends on the skill levels, different perceptions feed into misconceptions about how certain characters should be played.
A good example is how Genji is played at lower-to-mid ends as being a bunny-hopping RMBing scrapper, wherein the higher-end Genji players tend to focus on precision burst and opportunistic openings. More or less, Genji’s ideal is closer to the higher-skill or high-ranked players playstyles, but players here will scream up and down that Genji isn’t supposed to played like that, or it’s impossible to play like that.
Another is the “reddit-Lucio”.
And then there’s the notion of “off-support” which doesn’t have any sort of weight when all the Support number totals end up being very similarly close to each other. But role-based arguments tend to be a more difficult subject to tackle.
hmmm
yea because brig is going to be 1v1ing dive tanks without a support right next to her
huh, armor reduces shotgun damage? Face numbers aren’t usually what happens anyways, as long as Dvas value is lowered brig is doing her job
same with most of the tanks, supports have even more sustain then dva and winston
you know absolutely nothing about this game
is this a joke?
this is true
halfway, her design is to be the accessible and simple choice to mitigate dive value
source?
can’t compare them, rez does not provide a damage threshold for 6 players, its value scales higher then rez but has more counterplay, wouldn’t really compare them
This isn’t true, effective hp for newer tanks are much higher in comparison
overperforming in comps outside of his own niche
still does too much and is currently the only off tank that requires multiplee resources to be moved off an off angle, has a dueling kit similar to hogs but offers more then him
because she destroys the core ecosystem of balance in this game, provides passive value that scales higher because the resources she gives requires the same amount of effort, but get amplified in gm and masters
her self peel and durability are higher are they not?? You just seem to throw face numbers to hide the fact that your arguement fails in actual tested scenarios
sure but bap is the only person even close to brigs self peel and durability
Rally is an Ultimate, though. By definition, it’s not ready “at a moment’s notice” any more than an Ultimate which, say, gives a 1000 Barriers or heals 300 HP a second.
Huh? By all accounts, the only thing giving her 25HP did was take her from being the least-played support overall to being middle-of-the-road. If I’m wrong, correct me, but even at the top level, she wasn’t exactly a must-pick.
You said “This isn’t the only way for Zarya to get charge”, and I never claimed it was the only way.
So you were either disagreeing or you misrepresented what I said.
Okay, but that is irrelevant when as you said, low ranked players will scream up and down that a character “isn’t supposed to be played” a certain way or that it’s “impossible” to play that way.
So, in this case, if a high-level player is saying that Brigitte is no longer a brawler, then their opinion has the greater weight.
this is debetable. not denying it just debetable.
one hand bap has fart and lamp on long cooldowns but are great self sustain. and jump boost is limmited to positioning.
brig has a shield which slows her movement bash is as long as mccree’s roll. and ispire is good on how you manage your shield health.
there are more points i could make for both sides but im gonna leave it based on your opinion
Double-Support attacking a single dive tank. Doesn’t make much sense, and anecdotally I rarely see this happen. Not nearly as much as seeing Brigitte solo-ing Reinhardt or attempting to kill Roadhog.
Ideally, Brigitte will duo with another Tank/Damage to take down a specific target, but that’s not what happens in the lower end, much.
Armor reduces all sources of damage, barriers will negate all projectile damage. D.va’s own shotgun damage is tremendously low to the point where it’s just simply halved (From 2 x 11 x 6.67 to 1 x 11 x 6.67 at ideal ranges). After carving through 50 damage (just 1 second in the case of D.va) it’s back up to maximum damage. Inspire doesn’t even cut enough for D.va to add an additional second like it would for Winston. But yes, Brigitte is kinda-sorta doing the job if D.va’s value is being lowered here.
Nope, not in the case of Tanks as all Tanks typically do more damage than a handful of Supports with several Tanks capable of one-shot combos.
Effective range of D.va is 10 meters. Winston has a max range of 8 meters. Wrecking Ball has an effective range of 15 meters. Brigitte has a max range of 6 meters.
Most Supports are built to be accessible, so… yeah I agree with that sentiment.
Old beta forums posting indicating several supports (and tanks) were in development and one of them was related to Reinhardt and Torbjorn. We also knew that Sojourn was in development even back in beta then, but didn’t know what she looked like. Athena was confused with Echo, but we knew about “Echo” being in development as far as beta.
Overwatch heroes have been in development for years at a time. Genji/Mei weren’t added until the second phase of beta, and we already knew that the Dragons cinematic was in development before either was released do to promotional material. Same thing with D.va and Hanamura’s hints back in phase 1 beta.
It’s arguable, and Immortality’s value is conditional.
Ehh… yeah… but not really. New Tanks did power-creep old ones, but the old launch tanks did get some compensation in the form of QOL or just straight buffs (Steadfast, TAB buffs, Defense Matrix/Rockets, etc.)
Irrelevant; and not a sufficient argument for balance concerns.
No such thing as off-tanks. And the “too much” is too broad of a statement for an objective analysis.
Yes, but the argument is stronger because the Overwatch community doesn’t like her. Blah, blah, blah. We don’t like “X” so Blizzard nerfs “X” because the community doesn’t like “X” is so hyperbolic of a statement it can’t be taken seriously.
I meant in relative to the idea that Brigitte doesn’t support herself as much as Mercy et al. which is false as Brigitte has more than sufficient bulk and self-healing through active triggers. She’s more than capable of supporting herself.
Baptiste doesn’t have any self-peel. At best, he could Exo-Boots away, but that requires not taking damage for a moment to get enough charge. In terms of durability vis-a-vis Regen Boost and Immortality Field, certainly comparative to other forms of durability, but I would say he’s probably no more durable than Moira or Zen, and certainly less evasive than Moira.
Recent changes to his gun fire also weigh this, but I think there’s a need for more of a wait and see or time needed to make a more accurate assessment. I don’t have the tools Blizzard does, but he’s definitely not in Brigitte’s league in terms of durability.
Brigitte has two sources of ultimate charge available to her, so Rally will be available at least as often as Sound Barrier or even faster. Transcendence is on a lower charge, so it probably won’t be available as fast as Transcendence.
It’s tempting Double-Barrier back into play and we know Brigitte thrives in that.
Expanding upon what you said.
Nope. All points are valid regardless of the skill level.
If I’m a Grand Master Reinhardt player and I say that Earthshatter needs to do 500 damage and have ult charge of 1000 and a Bronze-level Reinhardt player says no way. Then, under your logic, Blizzard has to listen to the Grand Master Reinhardt player instead of the bronze-level player, because the Grand Master has more skill and more weight than them. And certainly more skill than the average Blizzard developer who built this game from the ground up.
“As available as Sound Barrier or even faster” isn’t saying much for the Ult that has the highest charge cost in the game. If Brigitte’s Ult is comparable to that, then it’s certainly NOT ready “at a moment’s notice”.
“Tempting” sounds like a lot of speculation for something that never happened and now never will.
That wasn’t an “expansion”, because it added nothing to the point. The point was that Zarya’s primary source of gaining Energy is by bubbling aggressive Tanks, which is NOT something Brigitte would have been able to do in the scenario presented, even IF her Shield gave her healing charge.
Nope. More often than not, low ranked players are just flat out wrong about what’s the correct way to play or what’s possible.
The game should be balanced around what is broken or ineffective in the highest levels of play - GM for ladder and OWL for organized team play. The reason that this is essential is to not only make high level play interesting, but because broken combos always bleed into other parts of the ladder. Take GOATS fro instance. It was only really the best comp in organized play, but with everyone seeing its success, it started to be played everywhere. Same with Orisa/Sigma etc.
If we are talking Brig, then it even is more important because Brig enables some very boring meta-comps - like Double Shield and Mini-Goats. We want her good enough to be a niche choice in high level play, but not so good that she defines boring metas.
I’m not being obtuse. I’m asking you what you define a brawly support as because that’s what I would say Brigitte is but you don’t seem to agree, so I’m trying to understand your POV. I’d also like to understand what you want Brigitte to be, and explain how it would be balanced
In my opinion, pre-rework Brig was a mess balance wise. She was obnoxious to play against because she was absurdly tanky with 250hp, her 500hp barrier & stronger inspire, and was in my opinion also obnoxious to play with unless you had 2 other supports because her team healing was so sub-par. To me, it felt like Brigitte wasn’t really a support before her rework.
I love her rework. It pretty much solved all of those problems I just listed, but also created new ones which Blizz is trying to fix
so if reaper is busted in low tier they shouldnt care?
im saying from top to bottom so they balance top as a priority then see how that affects lower tiers.
but each to their own opinions
the thing is, even as an “off healer”, she’d still need a decently spammable/available heal option. inspire is NOT that, esp when even with extra hp she won’t have very high uptime in melee ranges. legit, lucio, zen and mercy have that to compete. and again, that’s a big factor considering team sustain is largely from supports in this game.
and aside from res, their utility are also very available/on demand. that’s not brig’s cc either. so I have high doubts that brig, pretty much as is minus 2 extra pack charges, would be a very justifiable pick.
she’s not really a main healer sure, but those 3 charges of packs is what’s mainly currently letting her be viable as any sort of healer at all. like she’s not lucio or mercy who have high mobility to compensate for lower heal range (and lowering amount of packs is basically lowering brig’s heal range because she’d have to rely on inspire more). and she obvs doesn’t have the sustain to get in melee range often nor can she reasonably get that sustain in her kit.
imo they should just rework her staple heal method to be ranged, so that balancing her sustain is less eggshell walking. More specifically, something like:
and to emphasise, do note that even tho in that ^ idea, I propose to have a resource based system for packs, the ballpark numbers provided make it basically like a normal cd ability (similar to current cd for pack) but with liquidity in letting the brig player recover more resource quickly by landing whip shots and/or shield bash for key moments.
It’s fun to place that pulse bomb on brig 
I already defined “brawler” to you. It’s not hard to understand the context of my previous replies: a brawler is a character whose primary job is to engage the enemy on the front lines, such as Reinhardt, Zarya or Reaper. It is not a secondary or incidental function of their kit, but the primary way they gain value.
From ALL high-level accounts thus far, that does NOT describe Brigitte now. Current Brigitte is a long-range healer with a part-time job as backline enforcer.
It’s well-and-good if you like her current playstyle, but that is irrelevant. I happen to like current Symmetra more than Symm 2.0, but I completely understand the complaints of the ones who preferred the previous incarnation, because the two play only superficially alike.
I told you why that was necessary. Her utility was heavily nerfed, which brought upon the healing changes. One of the other benefits to having an off healer is their damage potential, which Brigitte also had early on.
Imagine if Rein only had 600 barrier health, which is nearly equivalent to the nerfs Brig got. They would either buff his health or damage, because Rein cannot heal himself or others. His kit is only viable because of that barrier. If Brig can’t have a shield, then she needs more damage or more health. More healing is not how you balance that type of character.
except think of how brig would go about dealing that damage. her damage is melee range and she’s got low mobility. so how much sustain do you think she’d need to overcome the low mobility and be able to get into melee range to deal that damage to justify very inconsistent and low uptime heals as an “off support”? esp when considering the high sustain various tanks have for longer range forms of damage.
it’s simply not going to work out in that either she’ll be really oppressive in having so much sustain to w+m1 about anything, or she’d be experience a lot of issues regarding low uptime in lacking tools to let her get opportunities to grab value.
if you want her to not be much about healing like at all and be more focused on damage + cc that way, rework her into an off tank. because that’s the only route she can take to reasonably have the sustain to be in their face often enough for what you want.
if she’s staying as a support, she’ll need to have more reasonable uptime delivering team sustain to be viable (damaging enemies isn’t the same as providing team sustain). and for her to do that while being not as mobile and not having tank-levels of sustain, is really to have her ability to heal be ranged while being as on demand as needed to be viable.
Rein is also melee range and low mobility.
and he’s got like 500hp, tons more armor, much larger hp shield and better recovering shield too for him to work like that. hence why I said, if you want brig to be more about damage and spend a lot of time up in the enemy face, rework her into a tank.
Which is why I tried to get you to understand the nerfs. 600 HP is not a huge barrier for Rein. He would be trash.
again, as I repeatedly said:
She’s not a tank, she is an off support who should be providing value. She is not. That is why she is in her current state.