See, except that’s not how it works. Junkrat mains want to act like it’s 100% the enemy’s fault if they ever get hit by Junkrat. Apparently anybody who’s playing with half a brain “never” gets hit by Junkrat and it’s only entirely by enemy fault that Junkrat can ever hit his target.
This isn’t true. This is a twisted lie to try and make it sound like Junkrat is weak and underperforming, when in fact, Junkrat has no trouble at all securing kills.
Junkrat can easily get tons of damage off simply by spamming the enemy team during a teamfight, because here’s some crazy information for you: When the enemy is getting shot at by your teammates, they might not always be paying 100% attention to every bomb you toss out, and they might move into them trying to get out of the way of other fire because of it. Crazy I know, but it doesn’t have to be intentional stupidity for Junkrat to land a shot, in fact, it only has to happen once or twice for him to even get an elim! CRAZY RIGHT!?
Except I literally just explained why that isn’t the case and you proceeded to ignore that. So let’s go ahead and just chalk that up to that “Junkrat Main” intellect.
That’s literally true of every single character in the game. So if you’re playing the game “correctly” you should never get hit by anything? Because that’s what you’re implying here.
Also, I’d just like to once again bring up that Junkrat can still 2-shot from complete and utter safety, he literally doesn’t need to see his enemy at all to get a kill. He can kill damaged heroes in 1 shot as well. I know you Junkrat mains don’t like to acknowledge that incredibly powerful trait, but it is one he has.
So yes, Junkrat is still objectively the easiest character to get value out of for little to no effort. And again that still does not mean he is “the best” DPS hero, and thus explains why he does not see high level play, because high level players don’t need crutches like Junkrat, and can instead make full use of characters who can get even more value if actually played skillfully.
Hope you’ve enjoyed this little lesson in how value works.
Yeah, it’s only like the enemy team doesn’t have their own ways to mitigate the damage by moving around it, use their tanks for cover, or, put pressure onto Junkrat themselves. Hey, I mean, it’s not like they’re glowing red, has a ticking sound, and one of the slowest projectile in the game.
I also find it dishonest to say that people say he has no problem securing kills when he has currently, the biggest problem with securing kills. Even before the buff, he always had problems securing kills. The only time he was more consistent, was the double mine era but outside of close quarter? He’s not that great.
I mean, if you’re bringing the whole team in. Then it’s less of an excuse considering the enemy team can very well swap, change or play accordingly. Junkrat toolkit is very obvious in what it can and cannot do.
So yes, if the enemy team can’t counter or change accordingly to Junkrat. Then it’s on their fault, if not, start learning to play accordingly. It’s not that difficult to ask that people learn some situational awareness.
Cause if that’s hard, then skills like positioning, ult tracking and economy, pushing and respawn as well as knowing when to give up a point is impossible.
You’re god darn right that’s the case, those are simple rules or fundamentals, hard ones, but still fundamentals.
You don’t stand in the open when there’s a widow, you don’t peek when there’s a Hanzo lopping off shots. If you see a healer, target them first instead of the beefy tanks.
All this are fundamentals, it’s not exactly asking the impossible in watching out for those red glowing grenades.
If you’re talking about the two-shots, he can do that reliably and consistently only at the close ranges. Ranges that he’s suppose to excel in. That’s also not bringing up that heroes like D.Va can eat it, or tanks can soak it with barrier if he tries to do it from afar.
Hell, don’t like to acknowledge that he’s a burst dps hero? That’s literally why we play him. To bursts an enemy down as quickly as possible. If people just don’t respect that aspect, then don’t get surprised when you get burned by it.
If you’re talking about skill floor, yes, he’s very easy to pick up. But him getting easy value? That’s only dependant on the enemy, Junkrat LIVES to punish mistakes and unfortunately, people at the lower end tends to make a lot of those mistakes. Hell, if you want to bring in skill and cructches, the one hero with the BIGGEST crutches is Tracer that once you get past the skill floor, she untouchable.
You want to know why? She’s so strong, that they had to bring in two heroes (Moira and Brig.) in an effort to gives support a way to survive or control her. Hell, even Hammond was brought in because they overbuffed Hanzo and Widow in their mobility (With Hanzo killing power increased through the roof, because of that.).
So yes, if Junkrat has ‘crutches’, then the other heroes have a bloody wheelchair and an ambulance as a chauffer service for them. The only one that prob deserves the title of pure skill only is maybe McCree, and as of recently, even that’s shaky with his FtH being buffed enough.
You need to get off your high horse and start being on ground level, cause all that thin air is cutting oxygen to your brain.
Ah yes, just simply move out of the way. Because nobody like tries to adjust their aim if you move. Obviously if you start moving the entire enemy team falls apart and stops shooting. What an ingenious strategy. Truly the Sun Tzu of our time.
Yeah no. Here’s another pro tip for you: If you’re out of range of Junkrat, then that means you’re not in a position you can make any progress from, because it means you also can’t see the enemy team, because again, Junkrat’s able to hit you behind walls and around corners, so if you’re out of his range, they’re definitely out of your range.
No, he actually doesn’t. Again, 2-shots, dead. 1 shot on a semi-injured person, dead. Shot-mine combo, dead. Trap-mine combo, dead. Tire, dead. You missing shots is not the character having a problem securing kills.
Junkrat lacks absolutely nothing in regards to damage or killing potential. The only thing Junkrat lacks is adaptability, and that is because he has absurd damage and killing potential.
And yet still all but 2 picks will be subject to him in one way or another. The only way to “completely” avoid a Junkrat’s influence is by playing Pharah and Mercy. Every other character can be effectively deterred using Junkrat.
So then why is it so difficult to ask you to learn how to actually aim instead of just spamming and expecting kills?
Except as I already pointed out, all of these things you can be pushed out into and it’s not “your fault”. If you see your tank’s shield breaking and you back up and happen to expose a pixel of your head out from behind the shield that Widow headshots is it immediately because you have no gamesense and it’s entirely your fault and has nothing to do with the power in Widow’s kit? No.
Not true at all. A good Junkrat can easily hit those shots at range, and when you factor the trap-mine combo, he can do it from infinite range.
So don’t act surprised when you’re 2-shotting character doesn’t also get a million other benefits tacked on to him. You picked your cards, you get damage and area denial. That’s it.
No, because even just spamming a choke is value. It’s area denial. It’s creating danger. That’s something you need to understand. Also, being high skill ceiling is not a crutch… You clearly have absolutely no idea what that term means if you think Tracer is a crutch.
There’s a difference between strengths and counters. Yes, Tracer (and Genji at the time) had little to no counters, no they weren’t that exceptionally strong, and still aren’t.
Still not what it means.
You just need to turn on a few braincells to see why Junkrat is objectively the easiest character in the game.
You do realize Junkrat weakest range is mid-range right? The range where people can not only actively dodge his shots, but also shoot him back as well? The only good range he has is close range, and that’s like in the 10 meters or so. Long-range is where he’s literally hoping to hit something, and if he does, that’s on you and no one else. I’ll give some leeway in that they prob don’t expect to turn a corner and have it rain nades, but trying to say you can’t retaliate against Junkrat in long range? That’s bull.
And I’ll point out again, securing kills has always been a problem outside of close range (And with his current nerfs? Good luck trying to do that at mid-ranges.). Perhaps not fighting him in the ranges he supposed to excel in would be advisable? Cause a lot of the things you pointed out can easily be circumvented with ranges or just backing off to get a better position to shoot him.
Junkrat lacks speed in his projectiles, and consistency thanks to that inconsistent mine falloff. He works great in close range, but absolutely bad in other ranges. Hell, you can spot traps as well by looking at it with your physical eyes.
D.va craps on Junkrat every day. Orisa in particular can render a lot of his damage null since her CD barrier in tandem that no matter how Junkrat bust his load, she’ll always have a barrier up. Flankers can also tons of tools to escape from him, or kill him.
I also never realized Widow or Hanzo can be dettered by Junkrat of all things. That’s why he’s picked so much in the OWL league, right? To counter them?
My issue here is the inconsistent falloff mine is the problem, the primary nerf doesn’t bother me that much after a while. Additionally, why is it so difficult to ask the lower tiers to get better? Or learn fundamentals?
Because it’s totally is? If you see your tank shield breaking soon and the enemy has a widow, you BANK the heck away from it. If I overextend, and not kept my head behind rein shield when there’s a widow, that’s on me. Because I gave her that chance to do so.
Same to junkrat, you see that red glowing orb, you better start to give Junkrat that distance and situational awareness. Hell, I fought tons of other Junkrats during the hey-day of his buff even as I play Junkrat as well. I face the same problems others do, I just figured out Junkrat toolkit really well.
Even the few best Junkrat, Chro, says to get the hell out when you’re mid-range as Junkrat since that’s his weakest area. Infinite range is only applicable to widow who can do that.
I also can point out that perhaps, the cards should start being balanced from the top and not the the lower SR tier because the lower SR tier has no idea what they’re doing. That’s my card I’m running with.
Tracer is absolutely a crutch once you get past her skill floor, why do you think so many pros have always been complaining about her? Even before brig came about.
Flankers are exceptionally strong, and they’re still strong. The meta doesn’t favor them, but I recall Tracer wasn’t picked much during season 3 world of tanks but the moment that’s over? It’s her all the way until double snipers and GOATS. Her toolkit hasn’t been changed outside her ult, and that’s because the excuse was that she wasn’t supposed to shred tanks.
Perhaps you also do some exercise with your brain, cause if Junkrat is the easiet char, then I can also point out tanks like Winston, Rein, D.va, Orisa are easier since their presence alone gives tons of value.
People really need to stop bringing up required skill when it comes to hero balance, it has nothing to do with balance. Just because a hero is harder to play doesn’t mean they should be inherently better, thats just flawed. Junkrat isn’t balanced, its that simple, change it.
Not on the base level, no. But if a character has a significantly lower skill ceiling, then yes, it shouldn’t be a direct competitor with a character being played at a much higher skill level. That’s how you get broken characters, hence why Junkrat can not receive any outright buffs because he’s already incredibly easy, so to make him just flat out better and easy means there would be absolutely 0 reason to ever pick anything else.
It’s almost like Junkrat fills a niche of absurdly high damage output and area coverage in exchange for not having the adaptability that other characters get with lower damage output and/or skill-barriers…
Than does it not care to say, that one should increase the skill ceiling of a hero so that skill can make a difference? Give them the ability to make a difference. Something people tend to forget about easier heroes, they can’t 360 no scope to win a match, they are very limited.
If the mercy mains, and d.va mains, and mccree mains, and widow mains, and doomfist mains, etc have taught us anything, it’s that if you want dev attention you have to make noise, and keep making noise.
Okay. I’m going to post a few quotes here from a thread I made complaining about Widowmaker and how dying instantly to her cross-map headshots isn’t fun. Tell me if you notice the similarities to what we’re saying and what they say about a hero who is completely accepted by the game audience in general as a “high skill hero”…
…and it just keeps going on (yes, a good 3/4ths of the thread responses completely miss the point of the thread).
Junkrat has never been to the point in OW that the only clean counter to him has been another junkrat, which is an issue pro-level widowmaker, and even some GM level games have with her. Yet, she is perfectly accepted despite having far less counterplay than junkrat did even at his most obnoxious (flying tire patch).
The number of weaknesses that junkrat has makes him not easy like you claim. If you think that junkrat players don’t risk themselves to get kills it’s because you are standing still and letting him peg you with grenades from outside of his normal effective range. Or you’re walking into his grenades and letting him be effective from outside his normal effective range. Or you’re walking into an area as he denies it to you which makes him effective outside of his normal effective range.
To quote the people in my other thread that missed the point: Pick a medium to long range hitscan, use your eyes and find out where he is, avoid his grenades as they slowly arc in, and then counter him.
Heroes are not easy. Players are easy. People play Mercy in the top 500 and their teams love them for it because she’s difficult to play at that level and she is extremely powerful. She is no longer OP, and so people have largely stopped claiming that anyone can play her in GM. On top of which, the skills necessary to master her have been noticed and are now praised (as long as her teammates aren’t stupid).
Junkrat’s weapon is not complicated, but it is skillful. Landing a direct hit with his grenades, even with the old radius, was skillful at distance. If you got caught in an explosion that wasn’t a direct hit, it was, in fact, your fault unless he herded you into it in which case it was his skill.
Leading targets, correcting for drop…is all skillful. Far more-so than hitscan which is, by comparison, just as easy as point and click.
Killing up close? Yes, junkrat has an easier time of it than some others like Soldier:76, but he pays for it by being extremely weak at long range (un-ironicly where heroes like soldier:76, McCree, Hanzo, Widow, and Ashe are strong).
Junkrat should be in the middle of the pack of DPS heroes like McCree and Soldier:76. Right now he’s in the dumpster tier with Soldier, however in Soldier:76’s case it’s because he’s not favored by the current meta.
In junkrat’s case it’s because the last nerf made him suck. We know this for a fact because Goats is a meta filled with large, non-mobile targets and is a meta where he should be extremely strong. Instead people are running mirror Goat comps and ignoring him because he’s just not effective.
Yes, that’s a perfectly valid route. However, something that the people asking for these buffs tend to forget: outright buffing a character =/= raising the skill required to do well, in fact it lowers it even further.
So, I still maintain Junkrat needs no buffs, however if he were to receive a full rebalance/rework, then fine.
Not true. Both Widow and Hanzo both have to get out in LoS (and thus be outside of safety) to hit their targets. Junkrat does not. Good try though.
You’re correct about making bad players good, but not good players better necessarily. In a literal sense, a crutch helps a crippled man walk but it doesn’t make Usain Bolt faster.
So yes, Junkrat still very much is that.
I get sassy when I have to reiterate facts over and over to people who don’t know how they work.
Not really seeing what the point of that was or how that was supposed to relate to Junkrat?
See, no, this is a misunderstanding of what “counterplay” means. People think “counterplay” means you kill that hero or make them retreat. Counterplay just means you make it more difficult for them to get value than not. IE: Widow’s counterplay; barriers, walls, etc, and to a lesser degree (but still useful) strafing and crouching.
Also not true, having weaknesses does not change the ease of the character. The only weakness Junkrat has is poor adaptability. Junkrat is very much about just spamming the same area to cover it in damage, hopefully get some picks along the way, do a bit of flank zoning with his trap, build ult, and then get a basically free kill(s).
I’ve debunked this whole “You’re just standing still and letting Junkrat hit you!” thing about 10 times now, so I’m not even gonna go into why it’s a ridiculously stupid thing to say and doesn’t hold up in practice.
Because he has absolutely zero teammates and only plays out in the wide open areas of the map. He never exploits corners and blindspots. Never.
Now I’m not saying Junkrat can do this indefinitely for the whole match with no issue, but to act like it’s literally just “Pick sniper, Junkrat deleted from game” is asinine.
Yes, Mercy gets proportionate value for her skill required. She’s by far not the hardest support but by far not the best either. She’s much like Junkrat in that she just kind of does one thing pretty well and pretty easily, the only big difference is that Mercy is intended to flee the fight when things get sticky, hence Guardian Angel, where Junkrat is meant to simply burst down his opponent or maybe make a cheeky getaway if his positioning allows it.
Yes, if you actually plan out your shots and hit them, that’s playing him with skill. The problem is, the vast majority of people playing Junkrat are simply picking a choke/hallway and spamming as fast as their fingers will allow. That’s not skill. There is absolutely 0 possible way to argue that there was any shred of ‘skill’ to you mashing your grenades and your trap and your mines all in the hopes that one will hit and delete the threat right in front of you or around that corner that you didn’t even know existed.
And amazingly, if you do that, you get MASSIVE reward from it. Almost as if Junkrat is balanced out by a massive payoff for a skillset that requires genuine skill to use outside of a simple braindead setup. Crazy. But let’s just buff projectile size and mine explosion size and tire speed and mine count and trap width and AoE damage, and make the bombs he drops on death all one-shot and home in on enemies across the entire map, that’s the only way he’ll be “balanced”.
And those characters are all weak to Junkrat up close, save maybe McCree but that’s more on you if you let him get close enough to flash you.
Junkrat is sitting low because map design sucks for characters like Junkrat to do anything more than cheesey braindead setups. We don’t have close quarters maps, we have a few tunnels and that’s it, and if you sit in them all match then you’re worthless to your team.
No, it has absolutely nothing to do with his “projectile size”. You weren’t some top 500 god before his projectile was nerfed, you weren’t hitting these crazy skillfull shots that are now impossible, you were banking on the excessive hitbox (which is still bigger than the projectile btw) to clean up your mistakes. Junkrat will not ever be “meta” until Zarya and Brig and some new character all get enough buffs to make him permanently immortal so he can just waltz in and blow people up.
You want Junkrat to be “meta”? Tell Blizzard to make a map that only caters to close range characters. That’s the only way Junkrat will ever be truly in the meta, for anything more than cheesey, braindead spamming.
First, I’d like to begin by stating that I don’t really appreciate having my arguments on an entirely separate topic be brought into this argument and used as evidence for yourself, especially when it’s being presented as ‘wrong’, despite you never having responded to my last post or having ‘won’ the argument. And you want to talk about me “missing the point” while you are leaving out the most important and primary part of my argument, which is that Widowmaker’s kit making it hard for you to learn as you claimed in that post makes no sense. That was what I was arguing. I was not arguing that Widowmaker was not oppressive. I was not arguing that she was/was not overtuned. I was arguing that your points and reasoning for the post were stupid and unbased. It has nothing to do with Junkrat or anything related to this thread at all.
Now, if you want to talk Junkrat since you pulled me in kicking and screaming into this thread which I haven’t even read because I never wanted to be here; on the old forums I once made a post stating that Junkrat theoretically has the highest skill ceiling in the game because in theory if you were able to land 100% of your shots as junkrat using geometry and what have you, you would have much more skill than any other hero doing the same. This post, while I stand by the points I made, was clearly not entirely serious and the reason is quite simple. Junkrat is too random for your skill to come into play a lot of the time at range. It is impossible for a human to perfectly control where the bombs will go, much less if they’ll hit their target once they are shot out of the barrel. This means if you have a Junkrat and a Widowmaker of the same skill level, while they both may be equal in effect, a Widowmaker kill is almost always brought out of the skill of the shooter, while a Junkrat kill will sometimes be their skill, and sometimes be the lack of skill of the enemy. This is what makes him a lower skilled hero; the things you can do as Junkrat are sometimes (not always, obviously.) not determined by what you as a player are capable of doing with your skill.
The only reason Junkrat is so weak and hard to play… is because he’s so weak and therefore hard to get value out of. But his weaknesses do not actually affect his skill level, and if he were buffed he would simply become easier to get value out of, without requiring any more skill because ultimately, the playstyle Junkrat needs to be effective in game is not the one that requires the most skill to pull off.
I love popular junkrat threads.
The replies that deny he needs any help at all (“he’s in a good spot” -meanwhile has a 1% pickrate gold and up) or that theres no way he’ll ever be made skillful remind me why I stop coming here instantly
So thanks for that. Back to not coming back for days to weeks at a time. Hopefully turning into never.
I’ve given up on junkrat being fixed properly at this point. If I ever get proven wrong by the balance team I’ll come back. But I seriously doubt it from their track record of junkrat changes so far.
Wow…you got a notification for those? Daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn. I actually didn’t know the forums would do that.
And other than that, I was using that thread to prove a point in this one that the solution for both heroes is exactly the same. The difference is that when widow players tell you to watch your angles, counter pick her, and git gud, the response is taken seriously.
However, when junkrat players tell you to watch your angles, counter pick him, and git gud, we’re told it’s just luck and doesn’t take skill, and then he gets nerfed into the freaking ground.
I was pointing out a severe double standard.
And as for the other thread, I stopped responding because I decided to counter pick her and went hunting with sombra until she swapped.
That said, she’s still no fun to get killed by, which was the actual point of that thread.
Ah. Well I’d tell you the same thing with Junkrat, yes. He’s pretty easy to counter a lot of the time. It’s not a double standard for me so that doesn’t help your argument much. It’s not like you quoted the person you responded to to point out their hypocrisy. Honestly pointing out you were against using that solution (at the time, though you say you’ve started to counter her now which I’ll take your word for) at the time and were in fact calling for nerfs while arguing for the opposite with Junkrat on a very similar basis only makes you look more hypocritical.
Also, you stopped responding to the thread long after you stopped responding to me specifically.
And yes, I’d agree with this. But as I said in the other thread, your arguments for why this is, what actions should be taken to prevent this and why those actions should be selected were poorly founded.
Oh, I still want her nerfed. But because I don’t find getting headshotted once and killed from full health fun. Yes, getting killed in general isn’t fun, but Widowmaker is the extreme case.
Some people hate CC. I’m fine with it. My peeve is getting sniped.
I just assume that anybody crying about Junkrat or thinking he’s in a good spot must be playing in gold and below where the game should NEVER be balanced around.
It’s time for people to just suck it up and learn to get better instead of the never-ending cascade of tears that flood the forums.
The game should be about being punished for bad positioning etc, but it’s not. Instead, what we have here is the Junkrat being punished because the whiners can’t be arsed to get out of tunnel visioning pewpew mode and actually pay attention.