This is a political video game. Always has been

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Mbrace-11950

This is an unfalsifiable claim. It borders on the concept of original sin i.e. we’re guilty just by existing/we’re racist just by default. Guilty until proven innocent, except innocence is unprovable.

It could never be disproven, therefore, you can always assume any and everyone is racist and will always be racist until the end of time. In other words, yes, the term is thrown around excessively

That’s not what they were saying, they’re pointing out that you can do and think racist things without even knowing it and it’s not productive to have the reaction you’re having here, i.e. everyone is ‘guilty’ of racism just by existing. Everyone is capable of racism and a LOT of people grew up in cultures that normalized it, meaning it happens without people even knowing sometimes. Acknowledging that isn’t saying everyone is secretly bad or ‘guilty’ of bad think.

It’s acknowledging we’re all learning instead of getting up and arms when someone points out you did something bigoted.

[Roku-21211]

@naia-21228

no one is playing Overwatch 1

I wonder how I got so many matches last night then…

[yffyffyffy-2596]

literally no one complained about what you say. stop lying.
people complained about being click baited and shown nothing significant.
game devs need to stop using ‘‘politics’’ to hide their incompetence and silence their critics.

[JAMES0N-21423]

@naia-21228

You do realise the game is dead, don’t you? There’s zero hype for Overwatch 2 and no one is playing Overwatch 1.

Funny, queue times are shorter than they have been in a looooooong time.

[Roku-21211]

Yeah player numbers are up atm. Not by much, but they are up

[Mbrace-11950]

@Aviatorhead-1915

That’s not what they were saying, they’re pointing out that you can do and think racist things without even knowing it

You can say people think all types of things without them knowing it. Things far more vulgar and dark than racism. And you can probably find a real psychological basis for the claim. The notion opens up a very dangerous can of worms.

The point is, it’s better to not accuse people of things they’ve demonstrably haven’t shown to do. If someone hasn’t directly done or said a racist thing, then don’t accuse them of it.

Everyone is capable of racism

Everyone is capable of murder. Doesn’t mean you need to harp on about it, or go around accusing people of secretly having murderous intent. Capability =/= willingness.

No one is guilty of capability.

Also, this is precisely why the Abrahamic religions have the concept of original sin. Because of all the terrible things humans are capable of. So yes, what you’re essentially preaching is a particular brand of original sin, that has a specialized focus on racism.

and a LOT of people grew up in cultures that normalized it, meaning it happens without people even knowing sometimes. Acknowledging that isn’t saying everyone is secretly bad or ‘guilty’ of bad think.

Just about every culture sits on a history of bloodshed and murder, and worse. Again, doesn’t mean any individual from that culture is guilty of it.

when someone points out you did something bigoted.

Except this isn’t pointing out that someone did something bigoted. It’s pointing out that someone can do it, and that they’re guilty of it.

It’s acknowledging we’re all learning instead of getting up and arms when someone points out you did something bigoted.

Acknowledge and learn what? If people are forever stuck harboring racist thought, then you’re essentially declaring an unsolvable problem. Under your train of thought, there’s nothing anyone could ever do to disprove that they’re racist. They’re stuck forever in a state of guilt. So what exactly is the use of pointing it out? You say my answer isn’t productive, but there’s no productivity to be had for an unsolvable problem.

[Recalled-11451]

why can’t a game just be about playing with people and having fun. Instead of all these identity politics

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Mbrace-11950

You can say people think all types of things without them knowing it. Things far more vulgar and dark than racism. And you can probably find a real psychological basis for the claim. The notion opens up a very dangerous can of worms.

The point is, it’s better to not accuse people of things they’ve demonstrably haven’t shown to do. If someone hasn’t directly done or said a racist thing, then don’t accuse them of it.

I’m not advocating for baseless accusations of racism or assuming everyone is some secret n+zi, I’m saying that assuming no one’s ever going to do anything even slightly racist is idealistic at best and ignorant at worst.

It’s also not the end of the world if you do something racist, and certainly isn’t comparable to murder. Especially if you didn’t mean it. You can appologize, explain yourself and move on, learning from the experience how not to do the racist thing again.

When I say people can do and say things that are racist without knowing, it’s not because they’re all super racist secretly, its because we’re all learning and don’t always know what we’re doing can be hurtful. Like outdoor cats. A of of people think their cat is better outside because enrichment, but the majority of outdoor cats die early and decimate local animal populations because they don’t belong there.

Do outdoor cat owners secretly all hate cats and small animals? Or are they just doing something they have been culturally taught is okay but is actually bad? I’d say the latter

[CelestialElf-11829]

@naia-21228

So the fact people are bothered by Sojourn’s inclusion

Who is bothered by Sojourn’s inclusion and why? The only issue pointed out was they grandstanded on it like it was some massive achievement to “reveal” a black female character that was from day 1 known to exist and was on the docket for inclusion at some point… the only issue was the unnecessary ballyhooing that override the fact people’s reasonable primary interest was on how the kit actually played so when they didn’t get a live stream (as is usually the case showing actual play) they were irate justifiably so.

@naia-21228

The Devs shouldn’t need to explain why they’re adding a black woman,

No one has had an issue with this I have seen yet nor asked for a reason for he being Black, but instead had an issue with a showcase showing no live play.

@naia-21228

So what is the problem? I would say it’s racism,

You are contriving this.

@naia-21228

“Black”, in American culture, refers to people of Sub-Saharan descent. Egypt and India are not located in Sub-Saharan Africa.

No one says this outside of the group (ironically) of people who were trying to broaden the definition of “Black” to be anything but White.

This situation quite frankly is a gaming thing, not a race thing.

[Mbrace-11950]

@Aviatorhead-1915

I’m saying that assuming no one’s ever going to do anything even slightly racist is idealistic at best and ignorant at worst.**

It isn’t so much assuming that they won’t. It’s a lack of assumption that they will.

And it’s not idealistic or ignorant. It’s called giving people the benefit of the doubt. If I haven’t seen or heard a particular person say or do a racist thing, then I don’t need to assume they’ll ever do it. Is it possible that they will do it? Sure. But that’s a bridge to cross when you get to it.

Same thing with murder. Anyone you meet could be a murderer. But in order to have some level of peaceful and practical interaction with someone, you have to assume on some level that they won’t murder you. It’s not naive. It’s just common sense.

You can appologize, explain yourself and move on, learning from the experience how not to do the racist thing again.

Again, that’s a bridge I’ll cross when I get to it.

its because we’re all learning and don’t always know what we’re doing can be hurtful.

Again, as far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing to learn if they’re not guilty to begin with.

Like outdoor cats. A of of people think their cat is better outside because enrichment, but the majority of outdoor cats die early and decimate local animal populations because they don’t belong there.

I mean, this is a bit of a tangent, but outdoor cats almost certainly live more meaningful lives. Sure, they die sooner, but they’re living a lifestyle more in line with their nature.

An indoor cat spends its entire neutered existences sitting around, eating and sleeping without the thrill of a hunt, until it eventually wastes away and dies. It’s a completely meaningless existence. The indoor cat gets to be alive, but the outdoor cat gets to live. That’s the way I see it.

Not necessarily saying this is flat out better. Like you said, cats cause problems with local wildlife, and that obviously counts for something. I’m just saying, it’s not a black-and-white issue. But if I were a cat, I would like to live like a true cat.

Do outdoor cat owners secretly all hate cats and small animals? Or are they just doing something they have been culturally taught is okay but is actually bad? I’d say the latter

I’d still choose to have an outdoor cat (and I have) for the aforementioned reasons. Or rather, I’ll give it the choice. Some cats just choose to be more indoor, and that’s fine. But I’m not gonna force it to be in-doors. I rather not curse it to a mundane existence of just sitting around.

[DxN-21799]

@naia-21228

So the fact people are bothered by Sojourn’s inclusion and the Devs’ reasoning for it is really weird.

Really twisting people’s words there.

@naia-21228

The Devs shouldn’t need to explain why they’re adding a black woman

It’s funny though because this is exactly what they did… which no one asked for?

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Mbrace-11950

And it’s not idealistic or ignorant. It’s called giving people the benefit of the doubt. If I haven’t seen or heard a particular person say or do a racist thing, then I don’t need to assume they’ll ever do it. Is it possible that they will do it? Sure. But that’s a bridge to cross when you get to it

I agree with you mostly, again, it’s not about assuming they’re racist. Someone can do a racist thing and not be racist, like how you can kill and not be a murderer. The comparison is a little iffy because it’s a lot easier to do something racist on accident than it is to kill someone, and the reprecussions of both are a lot different.

Cats were bred to not be outdoor animals. I understand you think that it’s more mentally enriching for a cat to be able to live outdoors, but the truth is that there is no evidence that outdoor cats are any happier than indoors cats, and lots of evidence that outdoor cats die a lot more often than indoor ones (due to getting hunted by local foxes/coyotes, killed by cars, mean humans, traps set out for animals, etc).

You can’t impose your own human view of what you would rather if you were a cat, because cat’s don’t think like human’s do. They don’t associate feelings like that.

[Mbrace-11950]

@Aviatorhead-1915

The comparison is a little iffy because it’s a lot easier to do something racist on accident than it is to kill someone, and the reprecussions of both are a lot different.

All I’m saying is, until a particular person says or does something racist, it doesn’t need to be brought up.

Cats were bred to not be outdoor animals. I understand you think that it’s more mentally enriching for a cat to be able to live outdoors, but the truth is that there is no evidence that outdoor cats are any happier than indoors cats

No they weren’t. Cats were first domesticated because they protected crops from pests. They literally were domesticated for their hunting ability. The idea of having indoor cats just for the sake of having one, is a very modern thing.

[Axafekt-1863]

Then this must be your only game ever. Every game has some level of politics and culture of the nation it was created in.

In AMERICA, we are a melting pot and was founded on the idea on the idea of diversity. (Ignore slavery and racism for a sec here.) So we enjoy seeing inclusion in our entertainment.

The only games I can think non political is tik tak toe and I am sure if you research it’s origins there’s probably something there.

[Squirtle-12672]

You seem to think I only want 1 race of character in my game and thats not the case.

Let me try something more simple.

Just look at both doomfist and sojourn before realese. We didnt have anyone shove in our faceses doomfist race infact it was more about his backstory and gameplay style and not to virture signal how diverse they are. No one had anything agaisnt him ever (aside from maybe a gameplay perspective).

And now look at what we have so far for her. One of the first videos about her is about her race and how diverse they are when people were starved for ow2 news, gameplay and content.

Diverity is something that should happen naturally becuase when its force not only it feels off and it splits the community.

[Sylhiri-1495]

@Axafekt-1863

In AMERICA, we are a melting pot and was founded on the idea on the idea of diversity. (Ignore slavery and racism for a sec here.) So we enjoy seeing inclusion in our entertainment.

And some do it way better then others. A good example is american comics, the major brands are suffering from low sales because they have people that don’t know how to make good story and just bash the readers over the head with inclusion thinking it will sell. Japanese comics on the other hand is massively outselling them.

Inclusion isn’t going to sell by itself, you need a good product.

Looks at Netflix Oof.

[Axafekt-1863]

@Sylhiri-1495

And some do it way better then others. A good example is american comics, the major brands are suffering from low sales because they have people that don’t know how to make good story and just bash the readers over the head with inclusion thinking it will sell. Japanese comics on the other hand is massively outselling them

I would argue American comics have been going down hill long before all the “woke” stuff people cry about.

I low key agree with this as a comic nerd myself. But I would argue there’s more to it and honestly comics is a whole different discussion I would not mind having. Lol.