zeniatta discord should be 25% more damage and not 50
And healing orb should heal a little more but as soon as targeted ally goes OOS globe needs to disappear istantly
Why can you not git gud and go Winston or something, honestly heâs not that hard to kill.
I would like to get back to plat again because I feel like it has a little more prestige than gold, for however much that counts. I had naive fancies of making it to Diamond when I was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. But the amount of time it took for me to practice every day to get from Silver to Plat the one time I was serious about climbing is ridiculous. The fact that I am getting older and more concerned about my life outside of the game, and the fact that climbing the ladder is frustrating as all get out as a support main, I donât give that much of a damn anymore. Even when I was climbing I knew in my heart of hearts I would never be anywhere close to where the OWL boys and girl are sitting. Thatâs just reality.
So once again, I ask: why am I in any way obligated to care about pro play when it will never have an effect on me???
1 Like
Except the ones that are, like Zarya. Even on the ladder Zarya is top 3 DPS, barely beaten by Torb in second.
5 Likes
Killing zen is easy? What does that have to do with discord orb being op. Yeah, heâs round and immobile, fairly easy to kill.
Still doesnât change the fact that he gives a team wide mercy boost that has no cooldown on his E
If you canât git gud and counter zen then do the following:
Go sombra
Place translocater down
Find zen
Shoot him up.
Still donât get it huhâŠ
Thatâs OK. Donât hurt your brain too much
The forums need to accept that game balance is complicated and people who play casually often donât have the best understanding of how the game works.
lots of people are trying to pin down one aspect of GOATS as the central problem. In a way this is understandable. If you find the lynchpin, you can nerf it and weaken the comp.
The problem is that there is no one aspect of GOATS thatâs making it such a powerful pick. Its strength lies in its redundancy, consistency, and its synergy.
The base healing of GOATS isnât that high. Lucio and Brig stack to about 33 hps (and neither base heal is on all the time). Zen adds another 30 hps on one target. Thatâs not a ton of base healing. As other people have pointed out, the more base healing a GOATS comp has, the poorer it is (Zen GOATS > Ana GOATS > Moira GOATS).
Damage dealers could burn through the base healing easily in a different comp. But damage can only be applied infrequently in GOATS comps because it has to make its way through a Rein shield, a Brig shield, two Zarya bubbles, and a Dva defense matrix. Added to that, most of the heroes have high health pools, and all have either armor, shields, or self healing.
One you get through all of that, then itâs the supportâs turn to serve as a line of defense. Thereâs the base healing, and then the healing cool downs, and then the three support ults.
The short engage time (due to Lucioâs speedboost) hurts long range opponents. The two CCâs (Lucio and Brig) and 2 CC ultimates (Rein and Zarya) hurt short range opponents. And once the comp gets to its opponent, it has multiple sources of very consistent high damage.
I dislike the comp and would like to see its prevalence reduced, but I donât know how one would approach it. Nearly every single aspect that makes it strong (aside from speed boost) is covered by numerous characters. It relies so heavily on hero synergy, and on the base consistency of its characters. You would have to fundamentally change several of them, and I donât see that happening.
5 Likes
Honestly I think one reason why healers in OW seem to refuse healing being problem is because probably many healers came from games like WoW where healerâs job is to keep everyone alive and someone dying (other than to avoidable damage like standing on fire) means you failed. So they keep this same mentality where no-one is supposed to die and you keep everyone up. Obviously thatâs not how things can go in a pvp shooter. Thatâs also probably a reason why you can still see many healers thinking that they are actually still underpowered.
Lucio and Brigitte can actually heal a lot when everybody stays together and stays alive. They heal much less in traditional comps as people are spread apart and kills happen quickly. Thatâs why burst healing with Ana and Moira is so good.
For example Ana only has 93.75 hps without nade and actually slightly less if you account for reloads. Lucio with no amp up is 92.3 hps and Brigitte with Inspire only is 100.02 hps. So in GOATS setup Lucio and Brigitte can heal just as much as Ana or Moira can.
Also Lucio and Brigitte are the core supports of GOATS. Zen doesnât have big output but he only gets used against other GOATS as you wonât need as much healing and discord is just so good. Against non-GOATS teams youâll switch to Moira or Ana as the other teams have more burst damage so youâll need more burst healing.
I already gave a simple 1 change that will kill goats.
But people donât want to accept it even though the benefits outweigh the negatives.
I agree. tanks arenât killing much in the pro scene without ults or numbers advantage first. In solo queue zarya damage gets kills a bunch because no one notices him flanking the sides, but at higher ranks itâs pretty difficult to get kills
healing is super strong, and the only anti-heal gets beaten by rein + dva + zarya bubbles at worst
OW has basically hit the same problem that paladins dealt with about a year ago
healers are viewed as underpowered because no amount of healing can carry players much much worse than the opponents. However, when a healer is playing as part of a stack, even a small amount of healing is OP. Thatâs why healer is the easiest role to get boosted on. balancing healers to be able to carry in solo queue often means making their skills OP in the pro scene.
Ana lucio and zen are all gods. I honestly think zarya is also a god. when they nerfed dva instead of zarya to try to nerf goats I was actually rather surprised⊠But I can understand. nerf the matrix and then more nades and gravs get through. However, they basically nerfed dvaâs role in goats while making zarya/ana more effective.
I donât know what they should do. My best thought was just cap the number of people hit by aoe healing. However, I also think having so many defensive ults is becoming a problem in the game too.
there need to be more slows against lucio speed boost too
edit: leave lucio immune to slows thoughâŠitâs no fun if i canât go fastâŠjust slow the rest of my team and I will go in and reddit lucio
edit 2: suggestion. change asheâs broken grenadeâŠinstead of a billion damage just make it slow the target. actually it has too much aoe to apply a slow right now probably. whole team would get hit and be sitting ducksâŠbut itâs an idea
As I understand it, your argument is that when a team stays close together, the damage they receive is distributed among all its members, so the aoe healing is equivalent to single target healing.
That 92 hps Lucio is only healing individual members for about 16 hps, and what matters to any individual hero is whether or not the healing they receive can keep up with the damage. If that here takes 92 dps, they will quickly die. If the 92 incoming dps spreads around the whole team, then Lucioâs healing will cancel it out.
I donât think your model is very relevant to how damage actually does occur though (at least not in higher ranks, where GOATS is actually played). People can aim, they can focus fire, and damage tends to happen in large individual chunks or in aoe. This Ana-Lucio equivalence does not really hold for damage of that form.
On a side note, if we measure total team hps in this way then Moiraâs hps is 400 hps without an orb.
2 Likes
Ive never seen anyone deny that Brig and Lucioâs auraâs shouldnât stack?
Well, unless you count Blizzardâs silence on the matter as denial.
Brig is issue cause of her E ability + her ult that gives a huge damage reduction even post armor nerf. And if the matter here is healing then Zen and LĂșcio are indeed balanced in that aspect cause they can barely sustain someone in a 1v1 situation with healing only.
Mercy can be added to the âbarely sustain anyone in 1v1 situation with healing onlyâ and sadly, she cannot contribute with much damage either cause she UNLIKE EVERY OTHER HEALER cannot do damage while she heals.
1 Like
Nope. Mercy is in the right spot considering healing(Giver her decent quality of life changes that Mercy mains are asking and she is gold). In a game like this, healing should never have such high values like the ones of Ana for example it doesnât matter she have to aim itâs just too much that make stuff unkillable and some fights last forever(Love playing as her tho but in a balance aspect that needs changing asap.)
Iâm not sure if you just skipped part of my post or what but like I said. In GOATS itâs much harder to single out targets as the team stays together. By the nature how GOATS stays together it obviously causes multiple people getting damaged. For that example Mercy wouldnât do well in GOATS as itâd take too long for her to heal people. Ana too can only heal multiple people on cooldown. Moira does get used in GOATS but only against non-GOATS when burst damage is more common.
Yes but itâs not sustainable healing. And like I said Moira is used in GOATS when fighting against other team comps that have more burst potential.
The real problem is damage in general. DPS and burst damage in particular got so damn high that they all just explode instantly. Tanks are the meta because theyâre the only ones who wonât die instantly to things like Widow headshots.
Healers also got buffed to try to keep up with damage, and they are struggling to keep up with healing as it is without burst healing if some sort, hence why thereâs always an Ana or Brigitte and never a Mercy or often even a Moira.
Blizz subsequently added more burst with Hanzos reworked Storm Arrow. Blizz added Ashe, which added more burst with her headshots. Later on tried to nerf the tank meta of Goats by nuking Brigitte hard (mostly deserved, but some undeserved), buffing Mccrees FTH, and buffing Reapers sustain. The Mccree buff notably adding even more burst to the game.
Really the only solution is to nerf the damage of damn near EVERYTHING back to controllable levels, nerfing healing to compensate for the damage loss, and MAYBE one or two tanks could get a survivability nerf, as I could see Wrecking Ball in particular being nasty if he kept his mobility, high hp pool and giant shield after an overall damage nerf. Otherwise keep healthpools the same, just nerf damage and healing both a bit, so that Attack classes donât instantly explode against everything, and healers can actually have a chance to save them.
5 Likes