Same could be said about trash support or dps.
Ofcourse but you only have 1 tank, meanwhile you always have an extra DPS or Support who could carry more weight than the other. Tanking is left to 1 player now.
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You can carry dead weight tank on dps the same way you can carry dead weight dps on tank. If you are smurfing then you pretty much always win no matter what your team is doing. If you are in your own elo then any “dead weight” teammate is hard to compensate for. Because you essentialy play 4v5 then and no matter which role is lacking game will be very hard.
Feeding tank isn’t much worse than feeding support, really.
Correct but I dont agree that the effort is the same. Its much harder to carry the dead tank weight. Your tank could easily provide the extra damage and kills that youre not getting from your DPS but your DPS cannot provide more tanking. I guess a good Mei is the only DPS that could do something.
This is irrelevant, no one is talking about smurfs.
Its always hard to compensate for someone not playing well but with this logic why not just have 1 tank, 1 DPS, 1 Support then?
Its much worse, supports can do all the healing in the world but if your tank/dps is out of position it wont do anything.
You don’t need tanks realistically speaking. If you play self-sufficient heroes like fliers, Tracer and other that don’t get bullied easily by tanks then you absolutely can carry bad tank. Problem starts when you play anchor dps that depend hard on tank presence to stay alive like Cass. Cass that doesn’t have protection of tank just feeds, he is too slow to stay alive. But Pharah, Echo, Junk, Torb, Tracer, Sombra all can work with little to no presence of the tank.
Because game would require intense changes and no one asks for it? Maps would have to be tiny and balance shifted yet again. I don’t know what point you are trying to make.
You don’t carry games by healing bad teammates. You carry bad teammates by getting kills yourself. Go Kiriko on the flank and kill someone. Go Bap and contest enemy dps. Go Zen and rightclick people. Go Ana and land fat nades so your dps can kill something. If your tank is bad but rest of the team is good you absolutely can win the game. The problem is when tank is trash and rest of the team is just okay + they play the game like if they have the tank with brain. Switch to heroes that can do things on their own and then you can have impact.
This match kinda proved that wrong, dude. Smurfing doesn’t mean you can make up for the most important player on the team not doing their job. A DPS or Support diff can be dealt with as a smurf. If it’s a DPS, I’ll diff them. If it’s a Support, I’ll kill them.
But I can’t take space like a Tank can. So my team is gonna get rolled.
But you can kill people efficiently so carrying tank doesn’t have resources. If team crumbles without a tank presence immediately then they are all just bad.
Says who? Overwatch was created with Tanks being an integral part of the gameplay.
No one asked to remove a tank and here we are.
My point is if we dont need tanks and they can be carried by DPS as you claim why do we have them in the first place and why did they decide to remove 1 of them?
I mean the whole premise of OW is to kill the enemy and capture the objective but with this logic supports and tanks should not exist in your own words.
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I PROMISE it’s not a tank diff. Tanks are on the front line by their core design, and the first to face consequences if a team’s comp or coordination are inferior in any way. They are the first to get blamed if anything goes wrong as a result. Even though they have to argue in order to get anyone to group up or counterswap.
I did kill efficiently. It doesn’t matter because the rest of my team has no space to play in. I know Tracer well enough to play in dangerous positions like that. No hero other than maybe Moira can do the same.
Unless you expected me to kill all 5. And I don’t think I need to explain how unrealistic that is.
An indecisive 12/12 Tank compared to a smurfing 21/2 Tracer…
Yeah, it was a Tank diff.
Just like supports and dps.
People complained about duo tanks and how steamrolly it is to have two off tanks vs proper combo. Or that game is too stally, not only during double shield. There were many issues with duo tanks. What some people enjoy others hate. 2 tanks made flanking obsolete because there is always off tank on angle to bully dps out. Kinda boring imo. Now you have more ways to move around the map. 5v5 has it’s issues but it solve many of boring aspects of 6v6.
To make game more interesting? Game could function with 5 dps as well, doesn’t make it more fun game.
“Could” not exist. Not “should”. Game last longer and is more interesting if people don’t die in one second hence addition of tanks and supports. Objectives take long time to capture so you either need to have beefy body to contest it or you have to kill everyone. 5 dps could easily kill each other but attacking team would pretty much always win because without sustain respawn advantage rules. With some sustain you have more interesting dynamics.
Are you really upset about losing one game in a while? I have like 90% winrate on Bap smurf, similar winrate on tank which means some games are pretty much impossible to overcome. Doesn’t mean it’s because tank diff is too hard specifically, just that some teams are too heavy overall. One guy throwing your game can ruin your chances - so what? Are you expecting to heavy lift truly dead weight teammate? Usually people provide something to the team and it’s enough if you are good enough. Not a lot, they can be worse than opposite tank - all they need is to not feed their brains out. And if people feed - then it’s the same issue on dps and supports.
Case can be made about dps being the least important role because every role is capable of doing damage. But if your supports are dog then game is just as hard as if tank is trash. Dps are important to secure kills and to occupy supports. If you have bad dps and enemy has good ones then your whole team struggles because just not enough pressure is being made and all enemy support cooldowns can land on your tank for free which leads to everyone collapsing.
I never said EVERY game is winnable. Just that tank diffs are not much worse than support diffs.
I’m not mad. The thing is, a lot of people will say EVERY game is winnable if you “just carry”. That’s not always true and that’s the point I’m getting at.
Support diffs lead to Tank diffs, which is the only reason why they’re meaningful. Basically, if you don’t have enough space, you lose. If your Tank is bad, you don’t have enough space. If your Tank isn’t getting healed, they can’t take enough space. See what I mean? It all comes down to how much space your team is taking.
This doesnt answer my question. Who says tanks arent needed? You?
OW2 is MUCH more steamrolly now.
Its almost as if its personal preference. Some people like faster paced gameplay while others not.
I mean agree but the issues it created make me not want to play the game.
So they created tanks in OW just to make things interesting. Thats literally your argument here?
But you complained that OW1 with 2 tanks was snowbally, so which one is it?
No one truly believes that. It’s just a phrase to express “don’t throw games just because it looks rough”. Many people gave up too early and start soft throwing games because “gg go next” mentality. Try your best, if you fail that’s fine.
Dps can make space too. They have problems with holding it for a long time. One pocketed Soldier is holding whole sightline in check because if someone dares to contest it they get beamed down. Widow is extreme case of that but other heroes do it as well. Junkrat can hold tight corners and choke points. I can give tons of examples. Dps MAKE space as well. Supports also - simple example anti-nade. If you throw it at people they are forced to hide or they risk dying. This means you have space to push.
Other fps games tells you all you need to know about needing of the tank. Team Fortress 2 doesn’t have any tank and is objective based hero shooter. It functions well so could Overwatch if that was the direction they want to go with. But it doesn’t make it better game - it would be complete overhaul and pretty much different game.
Not really. If matches are balanced it feels exactly as difficult to win as before. Matchmaking is trash so there is more steamroles going on.
So don’t say “no one asked for it”. Many people asked for less sustain in the game, removing of the tank is good solution.
Then don’t. No one forces you to play the game you don’t like.
Yes and they failed to make them interesting in long term. They became just infinitely better dps with massive sustain. Some designs were atrocious like OG Orisa. Concept can be fun while execution flawed. This is OW1 - great on paper, many holes in execution.
OW1 was snowbally when there was hard tank diff which is exactly the same in OW2. Two off tanks vs main + off tank was destined to lose. Hog + D.Va is just gg go next vs any proper comp. OW1 was very stalemate’y when there were two competent tanks in both teams. It was just shooting big rectangles for days and ult dumping to pass a choke. I don’t miss days of 2CP and tanks being in every important position on the map. Now they have to choose and they can’t protect every angle in existence. There is more duels going on between dps and supports. Game is more fresh
Tanks didn’t get a short stick either because more power is in their own pick rather than being forced to play complementary pick for the other dude or lose.
You know i did say he won on attack, he lost on defense, the plays he offer wasnt ideal but given how the match went, you expect every rein to chase a widow, widows response would be too hook away to the other building. pushing cart at start isnt bad and by the time he gotten to the corner point widow had already moved to the other building making rein unable to target her.
At this point it’s new tank players, or players who don’t usually tank… going up against players who only play tank and know a lot of the match ups well enough that they know how to work around any short comings as far as the match up.
I notice that regularly… I’ll stay the same tank the entire game… while the enemy tank cycles through four or five before the match ends.
“It can’t be me issue, it’s pick issue. Next one will get him!”
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Do you realize you’re contradicting yourself big time with this statement?
Im not talking about difficulty here. I’m not talking about how fights end up much quicker with 5v5 once the 1 tank is down.
For this I agree, I take back my statement that no one asked for it. They removed a tank but beefed up supports. Now everyone is complaining how supports are too overpowered.
And I am not, but I will voice my opinion when I want.
No, tanks worked up until a point, then bad balancing broke the game with the addition of brig. Dont blame tanks here.
How has OW2 changed this then? if you tank is being hard countered its GG.
Stalemate? You mean 2 teams with very similar skill expression made the game challenging?
This was a problem of OW1 but they never really gave it a chance of nerfing barriers or limiting shields to 1 per team.
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They can’t do it the same way Tanks can though. Holding it is just as important as getting it in the first place, and DPS space crumbles to simple teamwork.
I’d agree, but she’s map dependent. She CAN take space like a Tank on maps like Junkertown though, I’ll give you that.
Quite a few do. It’s been annoying me.
Anti forces them to back up, but you can’t really capitalize on it with no space. They back up, then what? Your Tank isn’t pushing forward, so if a DPS or Support goes in they’ll get melted.
I’m not. Overwatch as a fps game could work without tanks. It just wouldn’t be the same game. It could be a very fun game but OW was designed with tanks in mind. Removing them entirely would be weird.
And why is that a bad thing? Quicker fights don’t mean the game is more steamrolly. You can kill enemies just as easily as they can kill you. If in one teamfight you get picks first, you win. In next one enemy got picks first, they win. Add sustain and ults on top of that and it becomes quite complex. Just getting picks is not enough, you need to follow up on kills as well without dying. Game ISN’T more steamrolly than before.
Blizzard balance in nutshell. Remove one problem create another without fixing it. Nade still didn’t get adjusted despite the fact how much easier it is to land in 5v5 world.
Sigma release was just as abysmal as Brig.
I said that it didn’t fix “tank diff issue”. Please read my comment, it’s right there. What I’m saying is they fixed immense sustain of 6v6. 5v5 even with its immortalities and crazy supports is nowhere close to OW1 with 2 tanks.
No, I mean what I said. “2 teams shooting big rectangles until one presses Q”.
How do you limit shields to 1 per team? By adding even more restrictive role queue when tanks were already obsolete and had by far the shortest queue times? It’s not reasonable solution.
They needed to rework barrier heroes to what we have now. Ramattra is healthy example of shield hero - very long cooldown on barrier and his kit is mostly about empowering THE HERO not making hero around having disgustingly strong barrier. Orisa in 5v5 is more fun as well than her OW1 part - not much better since she is still insanely durable but at least it’s not shooting big rectangle while being stationary poking and pulling people.
You can’t push easily into Junk spamming choke. You need to move around it which limits your ways.
You yourself can push, you don’t need tank to do that lol. People hide you go forward. People fight you go back. Hypothetically speaking - what happens when both tanks are dead? People duel all over the place and whoever lands shots/abilities better takes space or kills the other guy taking even more space.
You can do it even when they have tank and you don’t. Tank can only be at one place at the time.