How is considering multiple heroes together looking at things in a vacuum? The issue hasn’t been the buffs to any one hero but how they all interact and the fact that there’s no damage that’s enough to get through that much sustain.
The buffs to damage haven’t been for heroes that have been meta defining (Tracer, genji, Widowmaker) with the possible exception of Hanzo. The fact is that the heal stacking allows tanks, who can already mitigate huge amounts of damage, to sustain for even longer. Buffing damage alone to compensate would require insane damage buffs, far beyond what we’ve seen. Aside form Storm arrows, hitscan fall off and tweaks to Symm and Torb (both of which have done little to their numbers) and Sombra’s spread we’ve not seen much damage increase at all. People didn’t stop using Tracer and Genji because of damage changes, they stopped running then because Brig made it too hard to get value out of them. Widowmaker was the defining meta hero for Seasons 9 and 10 because of Mercy and Brig respectively, not because she got a damage buff.
Rushing down objectives and forcing fights has always been the best strategy in Overwatch. The current GOATS meta does it with tanks and huge self-sustain because it can take all the damage that can be dished out and force fights on point. Dive just did it by dogpiling (or Sniping) individual heroes and snowballing fights and got shut down by Hard CC, it didn’t die of because of Torb, Hanzo, Symm or hitscan falloff.
The argument against healing being the issue at the top also fails to account for one of the key differences between most of us and the very best players: the guys at the top don’t die as easily. Look at the stats for an average OWL game and you see that the damage inflicted is often huge compared to the actual number of eliminations. 60hps with no way of stopping it bar bionade was OP at the very top because the players in question would disengage sooner than the average player. Hence why Mercy’s nerf feels far worse for many of us (whos teammates will not peek corners or use barriers as effectively) than the players at the top.
because you’re only looking at healers. every class has had changes, the ana/lucio buffs were pretty much what the community itself was asking for to bring them back, as everyone was using zen over lucio and trans was much better than sound barrier. there is also no healer aside from brig in need of tuning down, which also goes to show there is no problem in that department right now. just about everyone is viable, even if mercy is kind of bottom of the barral atm.
not all healers are “meta defining” at any given point and we’re still mentioning all of their changes. junkrat double mines, hanzo storm arrow, the hitscan-wide changes, soldier used to be at 17 went to 20 currently 19 per shot, sombra and doomfist and soon to be ashe added in as well.
goats is actually weaker in larger areas or where the enemy doesn’t need to come to them. Dive didn’t go for the objective, they went after targets. If everything is dead, that’s when you can move or cap the objective.
I can’t be any clearer in saying that mercy is not and was not OP outside of the valk rework. she got the buff from 50 to 60 in the first place due to exactly what I am talking about here, there was too much damage coming in that mercy ust couldn’t keep up. she was buffed to stay semi relevant. why do you think outside of valk, mercy was pretty much never used in the higher levels?
The ONLY thing that made Mercy a “sure pick” was her Res ult. It was too powerful because it literally rendered the entire enemy teams triple or quad combo pointless.
I love how you say “Lower ranks” and you are IN a lower rank and still trying to tell other people that they are bad. Wow. Hypocrite?
Ult Combo (like Zarya Pharrah combo or Junk tire) which resulted in the enemy getting a triple or quad KILLS. Mercy flys in and revives them all. That’s what her ult used to be. Your team would be happy and then sad cause Mercy was able to revive every one of them basically negating your effort. It was always very disheartening.
No I’m looking at how healers interact with heroes who aren’t healers hence the mention of tanks and their various defensive abilities. Let me say this very clearly: the problem isn’t any one healer, it’s how they all interact with each other and with other heroes abilities. I also didn’t say that the buffs to Ana or Lucio were the cause of this. I said very clearly that it was how healing stacks. I would also argue that Lucio (healing/second wasn’t adjusted to match his bigger aura) and Ana (300 heals on Nano, plus bionade = 550 burst heals… that’s a bit excessive) both need nerfs, small ones but nerfs nonetheless.
Half of the DPS buff you mentioned were last year and the addition of Ashe and Doomfist does not equate to damage creep because they are both lower damage than existing heroes. Nothing in your argument demonstrates that Tanks were a necessity to deal with damage creep and again, no DPS who defined/was a staple of a meta has received any changes to their damage in recent years (I’ll give you soldier… but that was 10 seasons ago).
You seem to be missing the point that GOATS doesn’t have to wait for you to come to them, they can just barrel at you because all the damage that isn’t blocked can be undone by the time they crash into you. There are very few maps where this doesn’t apply (I will give you that GOATS is much less effective on Anubis and Gibraltar and we’re seeing a shift away from it on Hollywood A defense in EU) and definitely not on the most open maps (Junkertown, Rialto and Kings Row). You missed the part where I pointed out that Dive was based on getting the first pick and snowballing, but I will cede that it was poorly worded.
Mercy wasn’t used in pro play before the rework because she had no utility whatsoever outside of her ultimate with Mass Rez. She was given 60/s because she had no utility aside from healing and Ana was so much better than her at that. Now she has utility outside healing. She is still used to this day in pro play on certain maps with certain compositions. 60hps with no resource requirements and no way to block was considered OP at the top.
Healing is the issue - specifically the way Lucio and Brigs healing stacks. Short of nerfing Brig’s healing however I cannot see a way out of this beyond forcing strict 2-2-2 (which I’m in favor of since it removes the worry of creating these situations).
you keep saying lucio and ana, but outside of a rather small subset of it, the best comp you could think of for ana (goats) with all of its tanks and big health pools, she is replaced with Moira. we’re in a place right now that pretty much all healers are viable outside of mercy (and when ashe comes, she probably will be too, unfortunately not because she became decent, but because she makes ashe do 111 for body shots)
Lucio is in no way OP. As for your ana “combo” the only thing that could use that much would be a roadhog at 50 health, or a tank that’s really low health thats continuing to take a ton of damage, and odds are it could most likely die before nano gets to him, pretty risky to potentially throw away an ult like that.
and like the healers changes have gotten over time are not? power creep is not an instantaneous thing whether it’s for healers or damage. It’s also not for specifically dps, any outgoing damage the amount has risen from where it was before.
Are you crazy? Ashe pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin for soldier, and completely outclasses mccree. with a mercy on the team she can do the same as widow with no charge time per shot. As for doomfist, two auto kill combos, several psuedo stuns and one with 3 seconds of no control? no, these heroes were not worse than existing heroes.
I’m not going to say much more on this point, because to try and say that damage (and especially spam damage that is just fire and forget through chokes) is not much higher than it was is just plain wrong.
Against uncoordinated teams like on ladder an in lower ranks, ya, it can be pretty annoying. With coordination you can look at game 1 of US vs UK (and then lok away as US decided to try to goats mirror match and fail horribly >.>) where goats was absolutely destroyed on illios by the cc of doomfist and the range of pharah that they had no way to deal with. I’m not saying goats isn’t strong, but i don’t think it’s the healing side of things that is to blame here. this comp has always been around in one form or another, even way back to the predecessor quad tank with ana. back then they nerfed her to get rid of the comp and she fell into near uselessness. it’s the very nature of tanks that makes this comp, being high health brawly targets that can shrug off a lot more damage than other comps. we’ve seen it run with ana and now moira, which goes to show that the healers can be replaceable, they just have to be the “main” healers with decent hps. as more healers are released, more and more will be interchangeable here, but the tanks that are the main issue will remain as they are or be buffed while the any given support that fills the role will be nerfed. Seems reasonable. Problem is, no component is too good on it’s own, but when put together, they’re exponentially better. for example, nerfing rein because he’s in goats doesn’t work because outside of it, he kind of just gets knocked around all day. It’s a complicated situation which isn’t just solved by “nerf the supports”.
rez is kind of meh in this current iteration. It’s still there, and yet most people consider mercy atm to be rather bad. this is reflected in the stats as well.
You can say it. She is used to this day to pocket. Don’t need a pocket for your widow or pharah? You’re not picking mercy.
let’s not pretend this is accurate. mercy has had 60 hps for quite some time now, and it was never considered OP (again, we’re all excluding valk rework). res doesn’t suddenly make the heals OP, especially in her current form. she is essentially reverted to before the nerf with the extra ult charge in place of the removed healing, and she is still a bottom tier pick. You can also look to moira being able to do 155 with a 16.6 hps HoT for 3 seconds and laugh at the fact that 60 hps was ever thought by some to need a nerf. Moira is strong, but falls off to Ana the higher you go. Mercy doesn’t even do that. Sorry, but old mercy was pretty bad, and this mercy is pretty bad. You can go from Diamond all the way to GM and mercy is by far the lowest picked support with the lowest win rate to boot. from bronze to plat her win rate is still second to last and her pick rate in plat is almost a 4 way tie.
In conclusion, she gets picked a lot in bronze-gold , but has a lower win rate across the board, including being the worst wr in the top 3.
for most ranks on ladder, lucio brig would definitely not be enough healing. They would also not be used in pro play like that. The problem would be the three support comp, and that issue lies with what I mentioned about tanks previously. They can shrug off more damage and brawl easier. This relates to brig being a tank/healer hybrid you make a healer that can fit outside of the support slots, allowing for 3 supports to work. If this is something Blizzard doesn’t want then I would think we won’t be seeing any more tank support hybrids.
Okay, I’ve had several games where the other healers think that I can just heal myself and I die while they’re dpsing or healing our dps. Yes, it is a bit of a problem especially the ones where they instalock heals to dps then switch to damage in the next round, essentially wasting the teams time by thinking they had another healer. I make up for this by picking a main healer that can work with the rest of the team and that I can effectively solo heal with.
Okay, yes there are Moiras that are too kill hungry and I have made mistakes where I’ve let my team die because I was too focused on dealing damage but I do have some advice to share. Moira needs to dps. That’s her kit. I saw you’ve been saying that in team fights you should always be healing your team but I have to say that isn’t always the case. It all depends on your second healer. If they need that ult charge and can handle healing up my team while a flanker or low health enemy is nearby that I can take out, I let them do their job and I do mine. Ana and Zen may seem like they only dps but you really can’t tell with them. Moira does seem to be the problem but the people I’ve run into usually play her fairly well.
Damage orb vs. healing orb in team fight: If your team isnt taking serious damage and have the upper hand, throw damage orb to help out and use your normal heals. Use damage orb in a team fight if you pop your ult too. If you angle it right, the healing will usually be enough to take care of your team unless the enemy caught you in a grav or something and you need that healing orb.
If you have a problem with how people play a hero, then play that hero. If you can’t then I dont think you’re in the place to criticise them too much and If you can play that hero, then play them right. Flexing may seem like the right thing to do but can really hinder you at times.
Not trying to start an arguement, just giving advice to help you climb. I just went from gold to plat by playing Moira and actually using my damage orbs as I used to play her way too defensively due to my past as a Mercy main.
Mercy isn’t that fun anymore imo so battle mercy is the only way to have an ounce of fun and feel like you’re contributing to the team. I know it sucks but not much you can do as Mercys are known to be salty.
Most supports at the lower rank aren’t that good as most of them want to play something else but then get stuck healing their team. Few support mains that love their jobs and are good at it in in gold that I’ve noticed.
Long post but that’s my two cents as a support main. Yes, it sucks and feels like they’re not doing anything but sometimes they are and its just hard to notice it. Just try not to get too upset and learn to deal with it.
Does a Lucio WALLRUNNING ON THE CLOCK TOWER…and doing absolutely NO HEALING WHAT SO EVER FOR THEIR TEAM…constitute throwing?? SHOW OF HANDS PLEASE!!!
Secondary Poll: Should dirtbags like that be flat out BANNED FROM COMP for offering no contribution to team victory??? Throw those hands up if you agree!!!
That is literally what I just had to deal with in Comp 10 minutes ago.
Never start off with a damage orb. You are giving ult charge to the other team’s support. Start off with healing orb to save your healing resource.
Damage orbs are great for end of fights to kill off low health enemies. They are also useful in duels, especially cqc. Finally, ifnusing your ult offensively, a Damage orb and your ult combine really well.
I don’t think the skill of healers has gone down, the easy powerful healer got nerfed and a lot of the other supports have a lot of skills and abilities to manage and most players in the game don’t know how to use their kits properly or have the mechanics and game sense to play Ana consistently well.
This is because most Moira do not take her for the heal but for the survivability. If people were more interested in her healing, they would realize Moira is useless at healing anything that is not right in front of them.
![:man_shrugging:t2:](https://d74zh8edaijub.cloudfront.net/en/overwatch/images/emoji/twitter/man_shrugging/2.png?v=6" ":man_shrugging:t2:")