The "hiding mercy" fallacy


#366

Nope, its like saying “i’m gonna throw out the trash” then throwing out the trash. They didnt say they’d throw out valk.

I dont think that word means what you think it means :slight_smile:

It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and mercy was pretty much a must pick.

Dude, dont blame me, i’m just trying to explain to you that the CD isnt the unfun, annoying thing, its the ability itself. Personally, i see res as the opposite to being 1 shot, and current res is fine.

Yes, but it doesnt actually change the core problem of mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe. Your solution didn’t hit that core problem.

How does it fix it? Hiding then coming out and ressing would STILL be a valid tactic with your tweaks. Which part specifically fixes hide and res?

Playerbase = People who play the game.
That includes user feedback from general users, the pros and other online communities.

Well then why was it a valid tactic that people genuinely used to win at playing this computer game? I mean, I HATED doing it, but it still worked. It was a valid tactic.

So you’re saying it worked. Cool. We’re done with that now.

Yeah, imma prune the rest now we’ve established it was a valid tactic.


#367

They deleted it from the game. That is another way of saying they put it to rest…

Think again.

I’m talking about post-rework. :joy:

Still though. CD Res is what made it annoying to play against. The amount of restrictions it has been given suggests this much.

Most definitely not. You can’t compare a killing ability with a reviving ability. The two are completely different. Also, current Res is most definitely not fine. It is the reason the rest of her kit has to suffer; to make room for the power given from Res on E.

That’s not a core problem? :joy: That’s just an “issue” you made up because you dislike the ability.

It doesn’t require dead teammates to use?

Not a valid tactic at all. All the drawbacks makes hiding the worst strategy you could possibly do as Mercy. Cast time means you can’t just jump out of nowhere and Res. LoS means you can’t just Res from walls after hiding. No Invulnerability means you can’t just survive after hiding and reviving your team. That and, hiding is by itself, a strategy that almost always fails unless the enemy is incompetent which in itself, is not likely since Competitive matches you with those with similar skill levels.

I can guarantee you that we don’t know the opinion of 40 million people which is the playerbase. We can’t claim that x is the opinion of the playerbase because finding the opinion of the playerbase is virtually impossible.

It wasn’t a valid tactic. Like I said, if the SR system wasn’t supporting it, the strategy would’ve died faster than Laura Lee’s subscriber after she said the N word. Also, again, people used the strategy because they would’ve noticed their inflated stats after they use the strategy.

I never even did it. I knew it was a garbage strategy to begin with. This is why me and a couple of other GM Mercy’s just stuck with tempo ressed as they are statistically better.

I’m saying it worked against incompetent teams which completely disproves your point that the strategy was viable. Don’t take things out of context.

Cool. I could tell that you really didn’t have much to say after, again, ignoring most of my reply.

After you took something out of context? I’ll repeat myself. It worked against incompetent teams. A strategy that only worked against incompetent teams is obviously a bad strategy. Only a fool would think otherwise. Saying that it worked against incompetent teams is not the same as saying it is viable.


This is quite fun tbh. You’ve yet to provide a decent rebuttal and it looks like you’re still just going to say no and continue to be in denial. Even after this, you think you won this argument. :rofl:


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#368

Here Jeff Kaplan explains why mass rez had to go which included what DrDangerRuss mentions.

And here is why mass resurrect is probably never coming back, professional players hate the mechanic and Blizzard is not going to annoy they pro players by bringing it back.


#369

I’ve seen the video. This:

Was not in it.

That’s not a good enough reason. Hating something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t come back.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#370

Huh? It’s definitely there, you might have missed it, watch from 140 to 210.

It is for them. The OWL is the golden goose for OW, they have to keep their players happy. And is not the only reason, the skill was creating a bad situation for players as explained here:

h ttps://www.pcgamer.com/why-mercys-resurrect-was-bad-for-overwatch/


#371

Are you talking about, “disheartening to play against”? If so, basically, I disregarded that reason because of two things:

  1. All ultimates when pulled of successfully are disheartening to play against

  2. Jeff only gives a scenario where the enemy team is ult stacking. Ult stacking counters itself so it isn’t mass resses fault that the enemy feels disheartened.

There’s also this reason from Titanium:

Yeah, no. Their biased opinions aren’t more valuable than 40 million other players opinion. Just cuz they dislike it doesn’t mean they get to decide what stays in the game and what doesn’t. Also, might I add, that most of these pros just want Mercy or the Res mechanic as a whole to be deleted from the game; they just don’t like the fact that a “low skill” hero has an ability that can undo their kills. Oh, and Seagull and Taimou have already said that they prefer old Mercy over new one in their respective servers. To paraphrase it, Seagull said it was just a handful of Mercy players that were hiding and Taimou said that it was a problem with the SR system, not mass Res.

I’ve already read this… I was bit disappointed. To summarise, it was just some guy telling us that we should have fun with a hero we’re not having fun with simply because that hero is OP.

Also,


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#373

It’s ok to not agree with them and have your own opinion, but it will do you no good tossing their opinions aside because you don’t agree with them. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, what do you expect them to think of you and your opinion when you just disregard theirs because you don’t agree with them, they will probably just eyeroll and move on. If you are not going to at the very least meet them half way, don’t expect them to do the same for you.


#374

More like, the minority in the game shouldn’t decide what gets to stay in the game and what doesn’t, disheartening to play against literally doesn’t make sense unless they knew it was a double standard and the article that person linked really was just some guy saying that we should be happy about the rework because it made Mercy OP. The rest is just labelling the problem as something else.

That’s the thing though. You seem to think that I’m disregarding them because I simply don’t agree with them. This is false. I’m disregarding them because I have reasons to do so and I’ve stated said reasons already. You must’ve missed them.

I really don’t expect anything from people who just state biased opinions without giving actual reasons as to why they have that opinion other than, “Res doesn’t work in Overwatch”, “Mercy is skiless” or “Mass Res was OP”.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#375

I guess you are not ignoring me, go figure. It’s not really the minority, it’s the other way around, it was changed because it affected the majority of the population, it’s what makes sense, it wouldn’t have been removed if it wasn’t a problem. But then again, common sense is not something you delve in very often.

You don’t agree with anything that goes against your point of view, literally, anything, it shows what really is going on here, just an emotional response from a person who can’t come to terms with the truth.

So anyone who doesn’t think like you is biased, sure. There is plenty of people giving perfectly valid reasons as to why mass rez is bad and you just disregard all of them because it doesn’t suit you.


#376

Oh I see what is going on here, everyone else is wrong, and I’m right, gotcha! Good luck with your crusade, you are going to need it!!


#377

Nah, I was just ignoring our last discussion because it really was just a back-and-forth argument that can roughly be summarised as, “No you”.

Pros are less than 1% of the Overwatch Community. They are objectively speaking, a minority.

I was talking about pros… Also, mass Res did have problems. No one said it was perfect. I don’t know why you just made up that strawman. That being said, said problems did not, and I repeat, did not need to be addressed with a rework. Nuance balancing would’ve done the trick.

And now, I already regret replying to you…

I’m getting a feeling of deja vu… That aside, I’ll repeat what I said, I provide reasons as to why I disagree with their opinions. I also provide my own opinions and exemplify them with reasons. Again, if this is where the conversation is going to devolve into, just tell me now. This time, I will permanently ignore you.

This is a strawman and a rhetoric.

And I provide reasons for doing so.


You know what, this was definitely a mistake. :joy: I will just go back to ignoring you and have discussions with people that actually can provide decent arguments. I’d recommend watching DarthWinston, Kazper, Titanium, Lithy, Milennium and many more. Perhaps they can teach you how to debate better. That aside,

It was nice knowing you.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#378

You ignored it because you were sinking more and more while i proved everything you said to be a lie or an emotional response from a person who cannot handle the truth.

I was talking about the whole server and how it affected it, the opinions of everyone matters, be it the pros or anyone in the ladder. And the majority of people were complaining about mass rez.

No strawman, just facts, not that you would know what that is.

But here you are yet again, letting your anger and emotions out for everyone to see. You just cannot handle being proven wrong.

That doesn’t change the fact that literally everything that proves you wrong, factually, is just disregarded for no valid or logical reason on your part, you continue to make up things that have no sense or any sort of real weight.

It is exactly what you are doing.

Sure, proven wrong and now runs in fear because your argument holds no value, classic. I find it ironic that you talk about debating when all you do is making up lies, not providing any real evidence whatsoever except for the opinions of others, not even your own which you don’t have, and then say that the person that has been providing factual evidence of everything and making a much stronger case than “NO YOU ARE WRONG” cannot debate, rofl.

Can’t even be sincere, no surprises there.


#379

Oh, just saw this. I’ll just reply with, I never said this. :eyes:


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#380

Its not though is it. The only real way of saying they put things to rest is actually saying they put it to rest. Again, where’s the confusion here?

Sure, done. Still think you’re just saying “denial” when you dont have a proper response :slight_smile:

Which one? Mass res was always an issue.

Good, you agree. The act of ressing annoys people, regardless of cooldown.

Yes they are, but there’s a logical connection between the 2. We’re approaching this from opposite ends. Either current res is fine, but the rest of her kit is weak, or current res is too powerful and her current kit is weak. So, we’re both saying her current kit is weak, so, again, we agree.

Like i said before, it promotes boring play (hide and res) and it was too powerful (undoing an entire team wipe). Your solution didnt fix either.

So? That’s just giving it MORE options and MORE power while retaining the old issues aswell?

Think about it, we’ve had iterations of all of those.
Even with no cast time, mercy was too weak, so they added the invulnerability. They iterated on it, then they came to the conclusion that it was too powerful. Why do you think that was?

Hiding worked. It might have been a bad strategy, but it still worked. It was a thing. It happened. Denial?

Correct, neither do you, so stop speculating on data that doesnt exist and use the data that does. You do know Blizz has an absolutely MASSIVE amount of user data piped in from every single match that anyone plays, right?

It worked, denial.

Then you dont know how to make it work, do you? So, uh, yeah, not sure how to tell you this, but you’re not an expert on this…

It worked.

Yeah, you like repeating yourself and trying to talk your way out of things we’ve already established, like, for example, how it worked.

I dont think that word means what you think it means :slight_smile:


#381

You can find clips everywhere and it’s not too hard to figure out what the problem was. There were people playing Mercy and abusing the SR gains from mass rez.

Which meant that they were letting their team die during a winnable fight.

Near the end of it, when everyone was catching on, Mercy would just rez 5 people into a Junkrat tire, Bomb, Shatter etc (because everyone was frozen in place, it was like a mini grav all by itself) and they’d lose. It didn’t matter to the Mercy player. She was still gonna gain 50sr for a win and only lose like 10 for a loss.

The counterplay was being ready for it. Save an ult for it if you know she’s alive somewhere. Wipe the team 2x.

Dva gets bonus SR gains from “mech-recalls”. If everyone started picking Dva and just purposely demeched and remeched all game… how would they fix that?

This wouldn’t be possible now with LoS requirements, the SR gain cap in Diamond+, All of the new area-denial ults. (Torb, Hammond, etc)

I don’t want mass rez back at all but the idea that she was ever OP because of it is silly.

If you team-wiped without including Mercy then she’s going to rez. If you try to team-wipe without killing Zen first, he’s gonna save them. If you Pharah ult into a Dva DM, it’s not gonna kill them. It’s not any different to need to go “Ok I can’t see Mercy but I’m gonna grav, save an ult for the rez”.

It’s no different than “Bait the zen ult”.

Once I was playing as Mercy back then and the enemy Reaper/Genji kept bullying me out of our backline/safe spot. I’d have to fly to my teammate and as soon as I did, they’d grav and we’d wipe.

There IS counterplay. And when you were being countered and couldn’t get rezzes off, you’d swap.


#383

Again, this is like saying Blizzard killed someone but because they never said they did, they didn’t kill someone.

You expected a proper response to you just disagreeing without saying anything else? Boi, your expectations are high.

“It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and Mercy was pretty much a must pick” can only be applied to post-rework Mercy because of 3 things:

  • It wasn’t a massive concern. All she needed at the time were tweaks and guess what? Buffs to become more viable as she was underpowered as hell. Her F-Tier status in pro tournaments suggests this.
    *These forums only blew up after her rework. Before her rework, it was just a bunch of nerf Tracer/Genji posts. You can check the old forums yourself before September if you don’t believe me.
  • Mercy has never been a must pick before her rework. Though, I will say that her pickrate was relatively high but that was because she appealed towards new players because of her kit’s simplicity, was one of the most popular heroes amongst the playerbase as said by Jeff, and aesthetics.

Must love living in your dream world. Anyway, as I said, ultimates aren’t supposed to be fun to play against. That being said, again, Resurrect became annoying after her rework because again, it was OP on a 30 second CD. At this point, you’re just being a classic case of, “No U”.

They are not. You literally can’t compare an killing ability with a reviving ability. The 2 function completely differently.

We don’t agree. You believe that current res is fine. I don’t. Buuuutttt, just to end this worthless argument, I’ll just agree to disagree.

This is fixed since the incentive to hide is removed, No SR system is promoting it, no invulnerability, no cast time and LoS fixes. Ignoring what’s given to you isn’t helping your case.

Even if “it’s too powerful” was a reason, the rework Titanium proposed involves a net decrease in power for mass Resurrect. It is in all senses, a nerf. Also, again, I know this isn’t a reason because they ended up replacing mass Res with something that is way more powerful; so powerful, Mercy became OP for a year and the moth meta began.

No incentive to wait for your teammates death? Are you a brick wall now?

Rough Translation: I disagree and I won’t say why it doesn’t address the issues.
Denial: the action of denying something

No we haven’t? What even are you talking about? When did we have mass Res that can revive the dead, mass Res with LoS fixes and mass Res with a cast time?

Oh yes! Invulnerability. The thing that was absolutely not neccessary and is considered by a lot to be the beginning of the end for Mercy.

So let me get this straight. She was too weak before invulnerability. That was true. Dev’s gave her invulnerability. She was OP? Okay, that’s not true but let’s continue: The devs came to the conclusion that she was OP after giving her a buff that made her OP?
This makes no sense because one, they have the ability to get rid of Invulnerability, two, she became extremely closed to balanced after invulnerability but was still slightly underpowered and three, iterating it once literally shows that they didn’t iterate it enough before just giving up.

It didn’t unless you’re bad. I guess you’re just bad. It still doesn’t help your case though. A strategy that only works against bad teammates is still a garbage strategy. Unlike you, I’m assuming that most of the playerbase is competent. With that in mind, hiding didn’t work.

Any bad strategy can work. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s bad. Should we rework Reaper now because some people are sucessful when they use the “Hide n Die” strategy?

Totally. That being said, the number of people who did it was exaggerated.

Are you describing yourself?

So I shouldn’t use data that is available and I shouldn’t make speculations based on data that we don’t know? Haha, that really is the dumbest thing I’ve heard thus far. That aside, you’re the one who claimed something you can’t prove. You didn’t even say it as if you were speculating.

Firstly, this is argumentum ad ignorantiam. We don’t know if they have such data. Secondly, I’m sure you would love to explain how they have the opinion of 40 million players. I’ll listen, I swear!

If you’re bad. Then that’s just a problem with your skill rather than the strategy actually working well. Again, you’re just in denial.

Because it doesn’t work unless you know for sure that the enemy team is bad. You did it because you were under the assumption that it was good. The only reason it worked for you was because the enemy team was bad. I would love to gamble on a strategy that fails 99% of the time but I was in GM at the time and such gambles are illogical.

Been a GM Mercy since season 3. I think I know how to play my hero effectively. If anything, you’re not the expert here. You think hiding is good even after ignoring the reasons why it was bad.

Against bad teams. Again, you’re just in denial because you want to make an excuse for your inability to deal with the most easiest to counter strategy in the game.

Keep taking what I said out of context. Only helps me. :sunglasses:

Thank god this is what you’re just thinking then.


#384

Didnt we lose mass rez over a year ago now?


#385

Indeed.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU


#386

That year went by so quickly! 10+ nerfs and majority of her mains and allys alike (here at least) dont like whats become of the character. Yeesh.


#387

Same but that’s probably because I took a break from the game after her rework.

Yep. Fun fact: almost half of the Mercy population left the game after her rework. I’m basing this on the fact that her pickrate halved shortly after her rework and then it skyrocketed.

Which is we want some sort of rework to happen again. Mass Res or not. Anything but this version of Mercy.


~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement :ice_cream::chocolate_bar:
BadWidowEU