The "hiding mercy" fallacy

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

The difference is that they SAID they’d put mass res to rest.

That’s like saying someone killed someone but didn’t say they did…

Nope, its like saying “i’m gonna throw out the trash” then throwing out the trash. They didnt say they’d throw out valk.

Yeah, because it wasnt worth comment. Mass res was overpowered.

D E N I A L

I dont think that word means what you think it means

Explain to me why the opinions of the players of a game dont matter.

Because disliking something doesn’t justify changing that thing unless it truly is a huge concern, which mass res wasn’t.

It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and mercy was pretty much a must pick.

I wasnt denying anything. Having your kill undone is annoying for some people, regardless of CD.

Well, ofc… Abilities aren’t meant to be fun to play against…

Dude, dont blame me, i’m just trying to explain to you that the CD isnt the unfun, annoying thing, its the ability itself. Personally, i see res as the opposite to being 1 shot, and current res is fine.

No, really, your way of fixing mass res was to make it more powerful and make the problem worse

You’d realise that there were more drawbacks added than buffs if you read it carefully. To summarise, the rework suggestion that was proposed involves a net decrease in power just for mass Res.

Yes, but it doesnt actually change the core problem of mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe. Your solution didn’t hit that core problem.

problem worse

Except the problem; “Hide n Res” is fixed… Their is now no incentive to hide because of how Res works now… Cmon, you ain’t fooling anyone. I know you didn’t read it.

How does it fix it? Hiding then coming out and ressing would STILL be a valid tactic with your tweaks. Which part specifically fixes hide and res?

Constructive feedback: The playerbase is annoyed with so much CC being in the game. I constructively suggest not adding more.

Define “playerbase”. Is their proof that the playerbase is annoyed with so much CC? Is their a specific amount of players? You need to elaborate on this.

Playerbase = People who play the game.
That includes user feedback from general users, the pros and other online communities.

Nah, it was a valid tactic that worked, regardless of SR.

Rough Translation: I disagree and won’t say why but I will try to mask that by writing it in a different way.

I disagree. That tactic had everything to do with the SR strategy.

Well then why was it a valid tactic that people genuinely used to win at playing this computer game? I mean, I HATED doing it, but it still worked. It was a valid tactic.

Then how come it worked? Which it did.

Any strategy can work. This particular strategy worked on teams that are incompetent; almost always relied on the enemy team to make mistakes for it to work. That by itself shows that the strategy was bad. If the SR system didn’t support it, the strategy would never have worked.

So you’re saying it worked. Cool. We’re done with that now.

Yeah, imma prune the rest now we’ve established it was a valid tactic.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

Nope, its like saying “i’m gonna throw out the trash” then throwing out the trash. They didnt say they’d throw out valk.

They deleted it from the game. That is another way of saying they put it to rest…

I dont think that word means what you think it means

Think again.

It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and mercy was pretty much a must pick.

I’m talking about post-rework.

Dude, dont blame me, i’m just trying to explain to you that the CD isnt the unfun, annoying thing, its the ability itself.

Still though. CD Res is what made it annoying to play against. The amount of restrictions it has been given suggests this much.

Personally, i see res as the opposite to being 1 shot, and current res is fine.

Most definitely not. You can’t compare a killing ability with a reviving ability. The two are completely different. Also, current Res is most definitely not fine. It is the reason the rest of her kit has to suffer; to make room for the power given from Res on E.

Yes, but it doesnt actually change the core problem of mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe. Your solution didn’t hit that core problem.

That’s not a core problem? That’s just an “issue” you made up because you dislike the ability.

How does it fix it?

It doesn’t require dead teammates to use?

Hiding then coming out and ressing would STILL be a valid tactic with your tweaks.

Not a valid tactic at all. All the drawbacks makes hiding the worst strategy you could possibly do as Mercy. Cast time means you can’t just jump out of nowhere and Res. LoS means you can’t just Res from walls after hiding. No Invulnerability means you can’t just survive after hiding and reviving your team. That and, hiding is by itself, a strategy that almost always fails unless the enemy is incompetent which in itself, is not likely since Competitive matches you with those with similar skill levels.

Playerbase = People who play the game.
That includes user feedback from general users, the pros and other online communities.

I can guarantee you that we don’t know the opinion of 40 million people which is the playerbase. We can’t claim that x is the opinion of the playerbase because finding the opinion of the playerbase is virtually impossible.

Well then why was it a valid tactic that people genuinely used to win at playing this computer game?

It wasn’t a valid tactic. Like I said, if the SR system wasn’t supporting it, the strategy would’ve died faster than Laura Lee’s subscriber after she said the N word. Also, again, people used the strategy because they would’ve noticed their inflated stats after they use the strategy.

I HATED doing it, but it still worked. It was a valid tactic.

I never even did it. I knew it was a garbage strategy to begin with. This is why me and a couple of other GM Mercy’s just stuck with tempo ressed as they are statistically better.

So you’re saying it worked.

I’m saying it worked against incompetent teams which completely disproves your point that the strategy was viable. Don’t take things out of context.

Cool. We’re done with that now.

Cool. I could tell that you really didn’t have much to say after, again, ignoring most of my reply.

Yeah, imma prune the rest now we’ve established it was a valid tactic.

After you took something out of context? I’ll repeat myself. It worked against incompetent teams. A strategy that only worked against incompetent teams is obviously a bad strategy. Only a fool would think otherwise. Saying that it worked against incompetent teams is not the same as saying it is viable.

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This is quite fun tbh. You’ve yet to provide a decent rebuttal and it looks like you’re still just going to say no and continue to be in denial. Even after this, you think you won this argument.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[Crissan-1144]

That’s not a core problem? That’s just an “issue” you made up because you dislike the ability.

Here Jeff Kaplan explains why mass rez had to go which included what DrDangerRuss mentions.

And here is why mass resurrect is probably never coming back, professional players hate the mechanic and Blizzard is not going to annoy they pro players by bringing it back.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

Here Jeff Kaplan explains why mass rez had to go which included what DrDangerRuss mentions.

I’ve seen the video. This:

mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe

Was not in it.

And here is why mass resurrect is probably never coming back, professional players hate the mechanic and Blizzard is not going to annoy they pro players by bringing it back.

That’s not a good enough reason. Hating something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t come back.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[Crissan-1144]

Was not in it.

Huh? It’s definitely there, you might have missed it, watch from 140 to 210.

That’s not a good enough reason. Hating something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t come back.

It is for them. The OWL is the golden goose for OW, they have to keep their players happy. And is not the only reason, the skill was creating a bad situation for players as explained here:

h ttps://www.pcgamer.com/why-mercys-resurrect-was-bad-for-overwatch/

[BadWidowEU-2419]

@Crissan-1144

Huh? It’s definitely there, you might have missed it, watch from 140 to 210.

Are you talking about, “disheartening to play against”? If so, basically, I disregarded that reason because of two things:

1. All ultimates when pulled of successfully are disheartening to play against

2. Jeff only gives a scenario where the enemy team is ult stacking. Ult stacking counters itself so it isn’t mass resses fault that the enemy feels disheartened.

There’s also this reason from Titanium:

@Titanium-1686

“Resurrect didn’t feel good to play against” . The first and most obvious question to ask at this point is, “What ultimate, when used to any benefit of the enemy team, is fun to play against?”

Last I checked, being blown up by Rocket Barrage, sliced apart by Dragonblade, frozen by Blizzard, denied by Transcendence, nuked by Self-Destruct, or knocked down by Earthshatter, does not feel good. This is a PvP game; “disheartening to play against”, “frustrating to play against”, or “unfun to play against” are a given for at least one team for part of each match, or the game wouldn’t be empowering for the other team… and thus, wouldn’t be enjoyable. Using this as a reason to change a balanced mechanic isn’t justifiable, unless the same can be said about every other ability in the game. Otherwise, it is simply a double-standard that reveals favoritism.

The second rhetorical question to ask is, “Does it feel better to play against a hero that has been a must-pick for nearly a year?”

Would you prefer to play against a character that resembles every other hero in that their ultimate is annoying to deal with, or would you rather play against a hero that is objectively overpowered, has been nearly a win condition for far too long, and still has an annoying ultimate?

Shall we dive into a bit of player perspective philosophy?

Unless the hero is a balance concern, Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character isn’t relevant. It is given that Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character is likely negative when playing against Player 1. On the other hand, Player 1’s perception of Player 1’s character is not a given in any videogame. For the videogame to be successful, Player 1’s perception of their own character, or how it feels to play their own character, needs to be positive. If that perception is negative, players will stop playing. As a result, Player 1’s experience with Player 1’s character is infinitely more important than Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s character.

In short, a player needs to feel empowered by their own actions. The player does not need to feel empowered, and in a PvP game, should not and will not feel empowered, by the actions of their opponents.

Player 1’s experience with Player 1’s character was breached and disregarded when Blizzard tried to make Player 2’s perception of Player 1’s hero positive… which they also failed to do. By attempting to change that which neither needed to be changed nor could be changed, the balance team tampered with something that should never be altered.

@Crissan-1144

It is for them. The OWL is the golden goose for OW, they have to keep their players happy.

Yeah, no. Their biased opinions aren’t more valuable than 40 million other players opinion. Just cuz they dislike it doesn’t mean they get to decide what stays in the game and what doesn’t. Also, might I add, that most of these pros just want Mercy or the Res mechanic as a whole to be deleted from the game; they just don’t like the fact that a “low skill” hero has an ability that can undo their kills. Oh, and Seagull and Taimou have already said that they prefer old Mercy over new one in their respective servers. To paraphrase it, Seagull said it was just a handful of Mercy players that were hiding and Taimou said that it was a problem with the SR system, not mass Res.

@Crissan-1144

And is not the only reason, the skill was creating a bad situation for players as explained here:

h ttps://www.pcgamer.com/why-mercys-resurrect-was-bad-for-overwatch/

I’ve already read this… I was bit disappointed. To summarise, it was just some guy telling us that we should have fun with a hero we’re not having fun with simply because that hero is OP.

Also,

@BadWidowEU-2419

One-tricking as Mercy A lot of players one-trick in competitive queue—meaning, for better or worse, they are only good at a single hero and often refuse to play anyone else. People do it for a variety of reasons ranging from comfort to leveling strategies. There’s not a whole lot wrong with this approach if you can ignore the incessant pleas of your teammates to switch when it’s needed, but one-tricking with Mercy often leads to inflated skill rating gains, which then exacerbates the issue of poor game sense at all levels of play.

Id argue that one-tricking wasn’t the cause of the inflated SR but rather the broken SR system with was fixed a month before her rework. To summarise, no, the whole SR thing isn’t a reason anymore because that was fixed a year and a month ago.

You might be thinking, “What’s wrong with staying on Mercy? Every team needs healing, right? What better choice is there than the prototypical healer in Overwatch?” All are very valid points, but the problem comes down to her ultimate ability. Like LG JAKE said in a blog post earlier this year, purposefully waiting to use Resurrect when four or more teammates are down creates a cycle of failure in many instances. A lot of Mercy players just see “x5” next to the skull and pull the trigger. However, most of the time they aren’t looking at the situation or enemy ult economy when they do it.
And again, this is a SR system related issue. The SR system at the time encouraged such play and it isn’t an issue anymore because that very SR system was fixed. Also, people don’t just one-trick her because of her ultimate. Frankly, there’s nothing that proves this. If anything, people were one-tricking her because of the broken SR system that artificially inflated their comp stats and the fact that she’s one of the most easiest characters to play and doesn’t have much transferable skills.
I play a lot of Reinhardt, for example. As soon as four or five enemies are dead, I already know what might be coming if the other team has a Mercy. It’s one of the easiest reads in all of Overwatch, and that comes with or without your team screaming to watch out for Mercy. When that big Resurrection pops, it does nothing but put a smile on my face. Why? Because that’s four or five fresh targets to get with an Earthshatter so my team can farm more ultimate charge.

Proves that “Hide n Res” is bad. That’s what I’m arguing lol. Only bad Mercy’s Hide. This is why tempo ressing is better. It doesn’t give the enemy team a chance to easily read your every move. I feel as though this whole article is just going to explain how “Hide n Res” is bad and how the rework was good because it got rid of this but you see, that is the problem. If the strategy is bad and the motive didn’t exist, it would’ve fixed itself. You don’t, and I repeat, don’t try to fix something that eventually will fix itself. That’s essentially throwing gasoline onto a fire.

Not only did that rez accomplish nothing, but it actually puts the other team in a deeper hole. Unfortunately, the game doesn’t see any of that. It rewards the Mercy player for that mass rez, and if they end up winning the map, they get a handsome SR bonus. For the Mercy one-trick, you couldn’t ask for anything better. You’re playing the same character so the game has a better gauge of your skill level, and you’re nailing multiple rezzes every time you ult. It’s the easiest recipe for success regardless of how well you’re really playing.
Lol, this is pretty self-explanatory. This is indeed correct but it wasn’t a problem because of mass Res, but rather, again, the SR system which, again, was fixed a month before her rework. Lol, this proves that they shouldn’t have reworked Mercy.
A complete lack of utility For all of Mercy’s attractiveness as a healer, she doesn’t have a whole lot more to offer her team. Zenyatta has Orb of Discord, Ana has Sleep Dart and Biotic Grenade, Lucio is a healing beacon and can boop, and all of them can do damage while they’re healing. Their survivability surpasses Mercy’s in every way, and they have a handful of debilitating effects that Mercy doesn’t have. Like the folks at Arc6 told me sometime back, you shouldn’t be seeing Mercy if there’s no Pharah on the field. At least then she can get up and out of range of some heroes.

You quite literally do not need to even touch Mercy just to give her more mid-fight utility. What even? This is a poor excuse to get rid of mass Res. Is mass Res holding a gun to Blizz’s head and telling them that they can’t give Mercy ultilty whilst mass Res exists as an ultimate?

Don’t get me wrong. It’s possible that with the inferior aim at lower levels, you might be okay just zipping around between grounded teammates. You might even be able to pocket someone on the ground without much worry. Even if this is the case, you have to ask yourself what purpose you’re serving in every engagement. Is it just healing or occasionally boosting DPS? Because that Zenyatta has a fire-and-forget heal on Winston, Orb of Discord on the enemy Mercy, and he’s nailing headshots and raking in some kills. At the end of the day, you’re there for Resurrection.
I don’t like the fact that some random person is telling me why I played old Mercy. Sorry to say this, but me and a couple of others played Mercy for reasons other than Resurrect. Assuming that is ridiculous because now, most of us find Mercy to be dreadful in terms of fun and she still has Resurrect. By his logic, we should still be playing Mercy and enjoying her since she has a more powerful version of Resurrect but clearly, this is not the case.
Mercy promotes sloppy gameplay

We’ve gotten to a point where a sizable part of the Overwatch community believes that Mercy is the support meta in every situation. You can’t enter a game anymore without someone demanding that Mercy be chosen over the others. Some might say it’s because she’s the best healer, but this is untrue. It’s because of Resurrection, nothing else. In this regard, it’s unfair to pin lazy, sloppy play on the Mercy who hides and waits for that “x5”. People don’t like being without that crutch, plain and simple.

This title is wrong. It should be, SR system promoted sloppy gameplay , in which I’ll respond with, it has already been fixed.

It would now be appropriate to discuss what happens with Mercy in Overwatch esports. For starters, where there is Pharah, there is Mercy. That’s the only time you’ll see her. Next, you will very seldom see a huge rez unless it’s completely safe to do so. This usually occurs when the enemy respawn stagger gives you the opportunity to do so. Other than that, single or double rezzes are the name of the game, and they happen as soon as someone drops so they can get right back in the fight. Even with that, Resurrection still has very little impact on the game. Look at the following chart provided by Winston’s Lab, an Overwatch data analysis site:
This disproves your assertion that tempo ressing was a bad strategy that was never used in pro play. Just wanted to point that out.
Even so, Mercy was in a bad spot—take it from Reinforce. She was not fun to play, she made people lazy, and there were serious problems with her SR gains. If you’re a fan of Resurrection, her changes actually make it a whole lot better. Now your Mercy will actually have to keep fighting and make micro decisions in every battle like everyone else, all while prolonging the engagement with individual rezzes. Not only that, but her ultimate brings more tools to the table, putting her closer to the caliber of support character she should be. In theory, this should improve the quality of player behind the Swiss medic
Mercy was in a bad spot but that doesn’t need a whole rework to fix, she was fun to play. The only reason this guy thinks otherwise is because he thinks we only play Mercy for mass Res. Lol, totally not making an assumption without enough evidence. The SR gains was fixed so that isn’t a good argument anymore. And finally, he’s telling us that we should enjoy an OP state of Res. That much tells me that he doesn’t know much about balance.
While these PTR changes might be shocking, think of how much more value you’ll be getting per spawn. Think of all the times having one tank die caused a hold to snowball. Give it some time and let it sink in. These changes are a step in the right direction.
Thinking like this is extremely selfish. This guy seems to be forgetting that everyone suffered a year of moth meta and some Mercy mains were targets of harassment simply because people were upset over the fact that Mercy players continued to play a broken character.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[Vendamar-1771]

If so, basically, I disregarded that reason

Yeah, no. Their biased opinions aren’t more valuable than 40 million other players opinion. Just cuz they dislike it doesn’t mean they get to decide what stays in the game and what doesn’t.

To summarise, it was just some guy telling us that we should have fun with a hero we’re not having fun with simply because that hero is OP.

It’s ok to not agree with them and have your own opinion, but it will do you no good tossing their opinions aside because you don’t agree with them. Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, what do you expect them to think of you and your opinion when you just disregard theirs because you don’t agree with them, they will probably just eyeroll and move on. If you are not going to at the very least meet them half way, don’t expect them to do the same for you.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

It’s ok to not agree with them and have your own opinion, but it will do you no good tossing their opinions aside because you don’t agree with them.

More like, the minority in the game shouldn’t decide what gets to stay in the game and what doesn’t, disheartening to play against literally doesn’t make sense unless they knew it was a double standard and the article that person linked really was just some guy saying that we should be happy about the rework because it made Mercy OP. The rest is just labelling the problem as something else.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment, what do you expect them to think of you and your opinion when you just disregard theirs because you don’t agree with them

That’s the thing though. You seem to think that I’m disregarding them because I simply don’t agree with them. This is false. I’m disregarding them because I have reasons to do so and I’ve stated said reasons already. You must’ve missed them.

If you are not going to at the very least meet them half way, don’t expect them to do the same for you.

I really don’t expect anything from people who just state biased opinions without giving actual reasons as to why they have that opinion other than, “Res doesn’t work in Overwatch”, “Mercy is skiless” or “Mass Res was OP”.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[Vendamar-1771]

More like, the minority in the game shouldn’t decide what gets to stay in the game and what doesn’t, disheartening to play against literally doesn’t make sense unless they knew it was a double standard and the article that person linked really was just some guy saying that we should be happy about the rework because it made Mercy OP. The rest is just labelling the problem as something else.

I guess you are not ignoring me, go figure. It’s not really the minority, it’s the other way around, it was changed because it affected the majority of the population, it’s what makes sense, it wouldn’t have been removed if it wasn’t a problem. But then again, common sense is not something you delve in very often.

That’s the thing though. You seem to think that I’m disregarding them because I simply don’t agree with them. This is false. I’m disregarding them because I have reasons to do so and I’ve stated said reasons already. You must’ve missed them.

You don’t agree with anything that goes against your point of view, literally, anything, it shows what really is going on here, just an emotional response from a person who can’t come to terms with the truth.

I really don’t expect anything from people who just state biased opinions without giving actual reasons as to why they have that opinion other than, “Res doesn’t work in Overwatch”, “Mercy is skiless” or “Mass Res was OP”.

So anyone who doesn’t think like you is biased, sure. There is plenty of people giving perfectly valid reasons as to why mass rez is bad and you just disregard all of them because it doesn’t suit you.

[Crissan-1144]

Are you talking about, “disheartening to play against”? If so, basically, I disregarded that reason because of two things:

Oh I see what is going on here, everyone else is wrong, and I’m right, gotcha! Good luck with your crusade, you are going to need it!!

[BadWidowEU-2419]

I guess you are not ignoring me, go figure.

Nah, I was just ignoring our last discussion because it really was just a back-and-forth argument that can roughly be summarised as, “No you”.

It’s not really the minority

Pros are less than 1% of the Overwatch Community. They are objectively speaking, a minority.

it’s the other way around, it was changed because it affected the majority of the population, it’s what makes sense, it wouldn’t have been removed if it wasn’t a problem.

I was talking about pros… Also, mass Res did have problems. No one said it was perfect. I don’t know why you just made up that strawman. That being said, said problems did not, and I repeat, did not need to be addressed with a rework. Nuance balancing would’ve done the trick.

But then again, common sense is not something you delve in very often.

And now, I already regret replying to you…

You don’t agree with anything that goes against your point of view, literally, anything, it shows what really is going on here, just an emotional response from a person who can’t come to terms with the truth.

I’m getting a feeling of deja vu… That aside, I’ll repeat what I said, I provide reasons as to why I disagree with their opinions. I also provide my own opinions and exemplify them with reasons. Again, if this is where the conversation is going to devolve into, just tell me now. This time, I will permanently ignore you.

So anyone who doesn’t think like you is biased, sure.

This is a strawman and a rhetoric.

There is plenty of people giving perfectly valid reasons as to why mass rez is bad and you just disregard all of them because it doesn’t suit you.

And I provide reasons for doing so.

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You know what, this was definitely a mistake. I will just go back to ignoring you and have discussions with people that actually can provide decent arguments. I’d recommend watching DarthWinston, Kazper, Titanium, Lithy, Milennium and many more. Perhaps they can teach you how to debate better. That aside,

It was nice knowing you.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[Vendamar-1771]

Nah, I was just ignoring our last discussion because it really was just a back-and-forth argument that can roughly be summarised as, “No you”.

You ignored it because you were sinking more and more while i proved everything you said to be a lie or an emotional response from a person who cannot handle the truth.

Pros are less than 1% of the Overwatch Community. They are objectively speaking, a minority.

I was talking about the whole server and how it affected it, the opinions of everyone matters, be it the pros or anyone in the ladder. And the majority of people were complaining about mass rez.

I was talking about pros… Also, mass Res did have problems. No one said it was perfect. I don’t know why you just made up that strawman. That being said, said problems did not, and I repeat, did not need to be addressed with a rework. Nuance balancing would’ve done the trick.

No strawman, just facts, not that you would know what that is.

And now, I already regret replying to you…

But here you are yet again, letting your anger and emotions out for everyone to see. You just cannot handle being proven wrong.

I’m getting a feeling of deja vu… That aside, I’ll repeat what I said, I provide reasons as to why I disagree with their opinions. I also provide my own opinions and exemplify them with reasons. Again, if this is where the conversation is going to devolve into, just tell me now. This time, I will permanently ignore you.

That doesn’t change the fact that literally everything that proves you wrong, factually, is just disregarded for no valid or logical reason on your part, you continue to make up things that have no sense or any sort of real weight.

This is a strawman and a rhetoric.

It is exactly what you are doing.

You know what, this was definitely a mistake. I will just go back to ignoring you and have discussions with people that actually can provide decent arguments. I’d recommend watching DarthWinston, Kazper, Titanium, Lithy, Milennium and many more. Perhaps they can teach you how to debate better. That aside,

Sure, proven wrong and now runs in fear because your argument holds no value, classic. I find it ironic that you talk about debating when all you do is making up lies, not providing any real evidence whatsoever except for the opinions of others, not even your own which you don’t have, and then say that the person that has been providing factual evidence of everything and making a much stronger case than “NO YOU ARE WRONG” cannot debate, rofl.

It was nice knowing you.

Can’t even be sincere, no surprises there.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

Oh I see what is going on here, everyone else is wrong, and I’m right, gotcha! Good luck with your crusade, you are going to need it!!

Oh, just saw this. I’ll just reply with, I never said this.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[DrDangerRuss-2439]

Nope, its like saying “i’m gonna throw out the trash” then throwing out the trash. They didnt say they’d throw out valk.

They deleted it from the game. That is another way of saying they put it to rest…

Its not though is it. The only real way of saying they put things to rest is actually saying they put it to rest. Again, where’s the confusion here?

I dont think that word means what you think it means

Think again.

Sure, done. Still think you’re just saying “denial” when you dont have a proper response

It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and mercy was pretty much a must pick.

I’m talking about post-rework.

Which one? Mass res was always an issue.

Dude, dont blame me, i’m just trying to explain to you that the CD isnt the unfun, annoying thing, its the ability itself.

Still though. CD Res is what made it annoying to play against. The amount of restrictions it has been given suggests this much.

Good, you agree. The act of ressing annoys people, regardless of cooldown.

Personally, i see res as the opposite to being 1 shot, and current res is fine.

Most definitely not. You can’t compare a killing ability with a reviving ability. The two are completely different. Also, current Res is most definitely not fine. It is the reason the rest of her kit has to suffer; to make room for the power given from Res on E.

Yes they are, but there’s a logical connection between the 2. We’re approaching this from opposite ends. Either current res is fine, but the rest of her kit is weak, or current res is too powerful and her current kit is weak. So, we’re both saying her current kit is weak, so, again, we agree.

Yes, but it doesnt actually change the core problem of mass res having the power to undo an entire team wipe. Your solution didn’t hit that core problem.

That’s not a core problem? That’s just an “issue” you made up because you dislike the ability.

Like i said before, it promotes boring play (hide and res) and it was too powerful (undoing an entire team wipe). Your solution didnt fix either.

How does it fix it?

It doesn’t require dead teammates to use?

So? That’s just giving it MORE options and MORE power while retaining the old issues aswell?

Hiding then coming out and ressing would STILL be a valid tactic with your tweaks.

Not a valid tactic at all. All the drawbacks makes hiding the worst strategy you could possibly do as Mercy. Cast time means you can’t just jump out of nowhere and Res. LoS means you can’t just Res from walls after hiding. No Invulnerability means you can’t just survive after hiding and reviving your team. That and, hiding is by itself, a strategy that almost always fails unless the enemy is incompetent which in itself, is not likely since Competitive matches you with those with similar skill levels.

Think about it, we’ve had iterations of all of those.
Even with no cast time, mercy was too weak, so they added the invulnerability. They iterated on it, then they came to the conclusion that it was too powerful. Why do you think that was?

Hiding worked. It might have been a bad strategy, but it still worked. It was a thing. It happened. Denial?

Playerbase = People who play the game.
That includes user feedback from general users, the pros and other online communities.

I can guarantee you that we don’t know the opinion of 40 million people which is the playerbase. We can’t claim that x is the opinion of the playerbase because finding the opinion of the playerbase is virtually impossible.

Correct, neither do you, so stop speculating on data that doesnt exist and use the data that does. You do know Blizz has an absolutely MASSIVE amount of user data piped in from every single match that anyone plays, right?

Well then why was it a valid tactic that people genuinely used to win at playing this computer game?

It wasn’t a valid tactic. Like I said, if the SR system wasn’t supporting it, the strategy would’ve died faster than Laura Lee’s subscriber after she said the N word. Also, again, people used the strategy because they would’ve noticed their inflated stats after they use the strategy.

It worked, denial.

I HATED doing it, but it still worked. It was a valid tactic.

I never even did it. I knew it was a garbage strategy to begin with. This is why me and a couple of other GM Mercy’s just stuck with tempo ressed as they are statistically better.

Then you dont know how to make it work, do you? So, uh, yeah, not sure how to tell you this, but you’re not an expert on this…

So you’re saying it worked.

I’m saying it worked against incompetent teams which completely disproves your point that the strategy was viable. Don’t take things out of context.

It worked.

Cool. We’re done with that now.

Cool. I could tell that you really didn’t have much to say after, again, ignoring most of my reply.

Yeah, you like repeating yourself and trying to talk your way out of things we’ve already established, like, for example, how it worked.

Yeah, imma prune the rest now we’ve established it was a valid tactic.

After you took something out of context? I’ll repeat myself. It worked against incompetent teams. A strategy that only worked against incompetent teams is obviously a bad strategy. Only a fool would think otherwise. Saying that it worked against incompetent teams is not the same as saying it is viable.

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This is quite fun tbh. You’ve yet to provide a decent rebuttal and it looks like you’re still just going to say no and continue to be in denial. Even after this, you think you won this argument.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

I dont think that word means what you think it means

[morph8ne-1367]

You can find clips everywhere and it’s not too hard to figure out what the problem was. There were people playing Mercy and abusing the SR gains from mass rez.

Which meant that they were letting their team die during a winnable fight.

Near the end of it, when everyone was catching on, Mercy would just rez 5 people into a Junkrat tire, Bomb, Shatter etc (because everyone was frozen in place, it was like a mini grav all by itself) and they’d lose. It didn’t matter to the Mercy player. She was still gonna gain 50sr for a win and only lose like 10 for a loss.

The counterplay was being ready for it. Save an ult for it if you know she’s alive somewhere. Wipe the team 2x.

Dva gets bonus SR gains from “mech-recalls”. If everyone started picking Dva and just purposely demeched and remeched all game… how would they fix that?

This wouldn’t be possible now with LoS requirements, the SR gain cap in Diamond+, All of the new area-denial ults. (Torb, Hammond, etc)

I don’t want mass rez back at all but the idea that she was ever OP because of it is silly.

If you team-wiped without including Mercy then she’s going to rez. If you try to team-wipe without killing Zen first, he’s gonna save them. If you Pharah ult into a Dva DM, it’s not gonna kill them. It’s not any different to need to go “Ok I can’t see Mercy but I’m gonna grav, save an ult for the rez”.

It’s no different than “Bait the zen ult”.

Once I was playing as Mercy back then and the enemy Reaper/Genji kept bullying me out of our backline/safe spot. I’d have to fly to my teammate and as soon as I did, they’d grav and we’d wipe.

There IS counterplay. And when you were being countered and couldn’t get rezzes off, you’d swap.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

Its not though is it. The only real way of saying they put things to rest is actually saying they put it to rest. Again, where’s the confusion here?

Again, this is like saying Blizzard killed someone but because they never said they did, they didn’t kill someone.

Sure, done. Still think you’re just saying “denial” when you dont have a proper response

You expected a proper response to you just disagreeing without saying anything else? Boi, your expectations are high.

Which one? Mass res was always an issue.

“It was a massive concern, these forums blew up regularly and Mercy was pretty much a must pick” can only be applied to post-rework Mercy because of 3 things:

• It wasn’t a massive concern. All she needed at the time were tweaks and guess what? Buffs to become more viable as she was underpowered as hell. Her F-Tier status in pro tournaments suggests this.
  *These forums only blew up after her rework. Before her rework, it was just a bunch of nerf Tracer/Genji posts. You can check the old forums yourself before September if you don’t believe me.
• Mercy has never been a must pick before her rework. Though, I will say that her pickrate was relatively high but that was because she appealed towards new players because of her kit’s simplicity, was one of the most popular heroes amongst the playerbase as said by Jeff, and aesthetics.

Good, you agree. The act of ressing annoys people, regardless of cooldown.

Must love living in your dream world. Anyway, as I said, ultimates aren’t supposed to be fun to play against. That being said, again, Resurrect became annoying after her rework because again, it was OP on a 30 second CD. At this point, you’re just being a classic case of, “No U”.

Yes they are, but there’s a logical connection between the 2.

They are not. You literally can’t compare an killing ability with a reviving ability. The 2 function completely differently.

We’re approaching this from opposite ends. Either current res is fine, but the rest of her kit is weak, or current res is too powerful and her current kit is weak. So, we’re both saying her current kit is weak, so, again, we agree.

We don’t agree. You believe that current res is fine. I don’t. Buuuutttt, just to end this worthless argument, I’ll just agree to disagree.

Like i said before, it promotes boring play (hide and res)

This is fixed since the incentive to hide is removed, No SR system is promoting it, no invulnerability, no cast time and LoS fixes. Ignoring what’s given to you isn’t helping your case.

it was too powerful (undoing an entire team wipe). Your solution didnt fix either.

Even if “it’s too powerful” was a reason, the rework Titanium proposed involves a net decrease in power for mass Resurrect. It is in all senses, a nerf. Also, again, I know this isn’t a reason because they ended up replacing mass Res with something that is way more powerful; so powerful, Mercy became OP for a year and the moth meta began.

So?

No incentive to wait for your teammates death? Are you a brick wall now?

That’s just giving it MORE options and MORE power while retaining the old issues aswell?

Rough Translation: I disagree and I won’t say why it doesn’t address the issues.
Denial: the action of denying something

Think about it, we’ve had iterations of all of those.

No we haven’t? What even are you talking about? When did we have mass Res that can revive the dead, mass Res with LoS fixes and mass Res with a cast time?

Even with no cast time, mercy was too weak, so they added the invulnerability.

Oh yes! Invulnerability. The thing that was absolutely not neccessary and is considered by a lot to be the beginning of the end for Mercy.

They iterated on it, then they came to the conclusion that it was too powerful.

So let me get this straight. She was too weak before invulnerability. That was true. Dev’s gave her invulnerability. She was OP? Okay, that’s not true but let’s continue: The devs came to the conclusion that she was OP after giving her a buff that made her OP?
This makes no sense because one, they have the ability to get rid of Invulnerability, two, she became extremely closed to balanced after invulnerability but was still slightly underpowered and three, iterating it once literally shows that they didn’t iterate it enough before just giving up.

Hiding worked.

It didn’t unless you’re bad. I guess you’re just bad. It still doesn’t help your case though. A strategy that only works against bad teammates is still a garbage strategy. Unlike you, I’m assuming that most of the playerbase is competent. With that in mind, hiding didn’t work.

It might have been a bad strategy, but it still worked.

Any bad strategy can work. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s bad. Should we rework Reaper now because some people are sucessful when they use the “Hide n Die” strategy?

It was a thing. It happened.

Totally. That being said, the number of people who did it was exaggerated.

Denial?

Are you describing yourself?

Correct, neither do you, so stop speculating on data that doesnt exist and use the data that does.

So I shouldn’t use data that is available and I shouldn’t make speculations based on data that we don’t know? Haha, that really is the dumbest thing I’ve heard thus far. That aside, you’re the one who claimed something you can’t prove. You didn’t even say it as if you were speculating.

You do know Blizz has an absolutely MASSIVE amount of user data piped in from every single match that anyone plays, right?

Firstly, this is argumentum ad ignorantiam. We don’t know if they have such data. Secondly, I’m sure you would love to explain how they have the opinion of 40 million players. I’ll listen, I swear!

It worked, denial.

If you’re bad. Then that’s just a problem with your skill rather than the strategy actually working well. Again, you’re just in denial.

Then you dont know how to make it work, do you?

Because it doesn’t work unless you know for sure that the enemy team is bad. You did it because you were under the assumption that it was good. The only reason it worked for you was because the enemy team was bad. I would love to gamble on a strategy that fails 99% of the time but I was in GM at the time and such gambles are illogical.

So, uh, yeah, not sure how to tell you this, but you’re not an expert on this…

Been a GM Mercy since season 3. I think I know how to play my hero effectively. If anything, you’re not the expert here. You think hiding is good even after ignoring the reasons why it was bad.

It worked.

Against bad teams. Again, you’re just in denial because you want to make an excuse for your inability to deal with the most easiest to counter strategy in the game.

Yeah, you like repeating yourself and trying to talk your way out of things we’ve already established, like, for example, how it worked.

Keep taking what I said out of context. Only helps me.

I dont think that word means what you think it means

Thank god this is what you’re just thinking then.

[LeeDento-2156]

Didnt we lose mass rez over a year ago now?

[BadWidowEU-2419]

Indeed.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU

[LeeDento-2156]

That year went by so quickly! 10+ nerfs and majority of her mains and allys alike (here at least) dont like whats become of the character. Yeesh.

[BadWidowEU-2419]

That year went by so quickly!

Same but that’s probably because I took a break from the game after her rework.

10+ nerfs and majority of her mains and allys alike (here at least) dont like whats become of the character

Yep. Fun fact: almost half of the Mercy population left the game after her rework. I’m basing this on the fact that her pickrate halved shortly after her rework and then it skyrocketed.

Yeesh.

Which is we want some sort of rework to happen again. Mass Res or not. Anything but this version of Mercy.

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~ Signed
Secretary of the Mercy Ice Cream Movement
BadWidowEU