yea because they aren’t black americans
lol this thread is a mess
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To be fair, neither is problematic at all. 
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I don’t know about beauty standards but the ad industry makes money by making you remember their ad specifically. The more you remember an ad the more successful it is.
Yes but a vast amount of big media only portrays them as the big evil villian. If simply having a vast amount of roles is what counters negative stereotypes then by all means, include them. But it’s when people complain about a piece of media by saying it doesn’t have (insert whatever you want) people that it becomes stupid.
If an artist wants to change the world or send a message they can do that and it’s great, but if another artist doesn’t want to and just wants to make their idea a reality that should be fine to.
My point basically boils down to; stop pestering people to make the art you want to see, just go make the art yourself or show your support for someone who does make the art you want more of. There’s no point in pestering artists (which the dev team is) just because they don’t care to implant a social message in their works.
Not sure what that means, I never learned anything about British people in school.
I think that sounds a little to much like a conspiracy but I won’t pretend to know the facts on politicians.
This subconscious arguement is too vague and unprovable. I mean, plenty of people have consumed this media for a long time and aren’t racist or prejudice. So does this only affect already ignorant people?
I still don’t think this message even needs to be projected at the general population. I’ve never seen a trans doctor in media but common sense tells me it’s obviously possible. I think (again) that anyone who legitimately gets effected by media in this way was already stupid and ignorant.
And I don’t think that will change with representation, they’ll just be stupid and ignorant about something else or will just stubbornly refuse to change their preconceived notion.
I think this makes humans sound way too stupid. We have thoughts and logic, we don’t just blindly believe whatever is on TV.
That’s the thing though, I’m not arguing for exclusion, I’d be perfectly fine if media suddenly decided to make more black (female) heros.
My problem is with people who get mad at creators for not creating what they want and not sending the message they want sent.
I’m fine with people’s political or social beliefs and I’m perfectly ok with them preaching them in their art. But if someone doesn’t care/ want to include a social/political message in their art (whether it be games, movies, ect.) They should also be able to without getting hasseled.
Do you agree or do you believe the message is important enough to force others to also spread it?
Can we just stop with this already?
You sound like one of those copy and paste VOX article. Overwatch is one of the most diverse games to date. We also already have black ethnicity in the game. It really just feels like this is about gender, which I don’t understand why. There is also a pretty close to equal amount of both males and females, so it just feels like you are attempting to scrape the very bottom of the barrel.
The ad industry works using both. They pay money to casually insert their products into various forms of media, say a Rapper with a pretty girl draped over a car, or a movie spot with a big shot ceo driving that car, and then you associate those things with a certain lifestyle. And then they use ads to convince you that their particular brand is the best of all the brands.
That is simply untrue. British people are all over media, in all kinds of roles. They are often portrayed as scholars. One of the biggest and most beloved British roles is James Bond, a hero.
All media helps to send a message to society, regardless of authorial intent. If someone wants to share their art with the world, they have to be prepared for the world to share their opinion of their art back. It is part of the process of sharing and it is unavoidable.
This is a nonsensical message on these forums in particular because Blizzard has been very clear that Overwatch DOES have a social message, and that they value feedback in that regard from the community. They have even taken the time out on a couple of occasions to write personalized letters to fans on this subject.
Beyond that, as I said above, you can’t make your work public and expect to send a message to the world without expecting criticism. That isn’t how the world works and every artist knows that when going into public art. This is why some of them won’t do public art, and some of them have pieces they won’t share with the world.
Where are you from that you didn’t learn anything about Britain, if you don’t mind me asking?
You should do some research on the role of political propaganda and the way it influences public opinion.
Yes, the more ignorant you are on a topic the more likely you are to get your opinion from the media. It is true of all kinds of topics, not just views on race.
Ignorance is only combatted with information. Just because you don’t personally need that information doesn’t mean that others do not. Some people learn by seeing, and if they don’t see these images, they pick up on that subconsciously and their views are shaped accordingly.
I’m not saying media is a cure all, but it certainly helps.
TV absolutely does shape our opinions. All media has that influence.
How can you simultaneously believe that seeing the same message over and over again on social media can “force” a creator to believe a message, but not think that the media doing the same exact thing to the masses not have an influence on people’s opinions?
Anyway, nobody is being forced into it. They can read those messages, see how important it is to some customers, and then choose whether or not they are going to act on that criticism. These criticisms certainly has an influence on what these companies put out, same as those companies influence their customers, but at the end of the day nobody is forced to do anything.
You aren’t forced to be a racist just because you see a lot of racist messages on tv. And you aren’t forced to put messages in your work because you see a lot of tweets about representation.
However, it would be wrong to say neither of those things are influential. I think the message is important enough to be worth voicing. It is up to the devs if they want to listen or not.
Oh look, another person trying to force “diversity” aka a racist that wants a character based solely around their skin color, boring and repetitive.
The racist people jumped out. Just mention race or sexuality and they come running out to tell their unwanted opinions.
Skin tone wise yes if people look at them in simplest form. Culturally no because they are not born in America. Black is just a shortcut name for African descent just like white being a shortcut name for European descent. Both are raised in America doing inheriting American culture. Closes allies with a bad history.
People keep replying to my post.
Just to clarify: I know what “black” means and what “African” means. And I know that some black people can be as light as Europeans skin tone-wise.
My point isn’t skin tone, but mostly facial features. Hair included.
And before anyone replies again, yes, I’m sure there are black women out there who look like Pharah and Ana and they aren’t Arabs or whatever.
My point is that if the devs wanted to represent black women, they would design characters who are so easily interpreted as not black. This is why it’s fair to say that Overwatch does not have a playable black woman yet. Orisa and Athena are robots voiced by black women and Efi is not playable.
First ever in the forums. I fully agree with Nepenthe on something.
Yes they want feedback on things that matter like gameplay. And they haven’t said much in terms of a message other than “hero never dies blah”.
Yes actual criticism is perfectly fine but “you didn’t make what I wanted” isn’t valid criticism. Pestering artists to make a message you want isn’t criticism it’s just pestering.
Texas. And when I say I didn’t learn anything I really mean anything . The only time I heard about Britain is when they were directly involved with America somehow (like a war or alliance ect.).
Other than that I was taught nothing of their culture or heritage.
If we’re in agreement of that then it’s just a difference of priorities.
I think it’s a waste of time to try to change the minds of already ignorant people and you don’t.
This is true but the thing about ignorance is that ignorant people stay ignorant. Just look at flat earthers and anti vaxers, there’s mountains of evidence against them but they believe themselves first and foremost.
I disagree. Media can only influence a normal person so much and unless that person is stupid they shouldn’t make assumption of an entire group of people because they saw a bad guy in a movie.
That’s not what I meant. I was talking about people constantly complaining about someone’s art until that person caves and just makes what they want. I wasn’t talking about subtle mind control I was talking about people directly complaining, thus “forcing” the artist to make what they want or they’ll just keep complaining.
But it is forcing in a way. These companies will make less money if they don’t cater to these complainers and that’s stupid. Just because something doesn’t spread a certain message doesn’t mean it should be weeded out by complainers.
Here let me give you an example. World hunger is a huge problem. The film “spiderman: homecoming” has no mention of world hunger and doesn’t have aessayed of trying to stop it. In this situation do you think “this film has no mention of world hunger and needs to spread awareness of the issue” would be a valid criticism?
Again, my point is an artist should be allowed to make whatever they want without people complaining that they didn’t talk about a certain issue.
If someone wants to make an all female Ghostbusters they should be able to without people getting mad that none of them are pregnant or black ect.
If someone wants to make a game where the cast is nothing but (insert here) they should be allowed to without being pressured into making a message they didn’t want to.
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She’s African not Black for the fact she’s from Birmingham. Black = American culture.
Right, that I didn’t know, but you get what I’m saying.
I get what you’re saying 
You don’t get to decide what matters to other people. And the devs of this game have directly responded saying they want this kind of feedback. Overwatch is a game about inclusion, after all. It was marketed as such and they talked about it. Saying we shouldn’t discuss inclusion in Overwatch is a bit like saying we shouldn’t discuss the resurgence of certain political philosophies from WWII era Germany in Wolfenstein’s forum.
You not agreeing doesn’t make it not actual criticism. Wanting representation is perfectly valid and has academic weight behind it.
Huh, interesting. We learned a lot about Britain here in MI. We learned so much about it it’s hard to imagine other states not bothering to teach it at all. They are one of our strongest allies.
And some of them change their mind. You’ll never get rid of it all, but you can greatly reduce that number.
There are numerous studies on this, and also numerous insistences of politcal elites using propaganda to sway public opinion. You should research this topic. You would be surprised. It isn’t something that happens a ton on an individal media property level, but moreso in aggregate.
Still not forcing them. They can choose what to read.
It’s a consumer product. There is nothing wrong with a company making less money because it’s product isn’t pleasing to it’s customer.
Representation isn’t the same thing as world hunger because it’s not a problem that can be addressed with superficial changes to the product.
No. They shouldn’t. All art available to the public should be able to be criticized by the public.
The complaints were that it was all male, and those people had every right to complain. It doesn’t mean that the director should have listened, but they should be able to complain on social media. And the individual complaints should be evaluated on their own merits.
A lot of them didn’t even want to send the message they were sending, they weren’t even aware of it. These talks have made many developers more thoughtful about their products.
Honestly?
What makes someone white is not looking like any other race.
Both parents white? Other whites will consider you white.
One parent white and one parent non white (including non-white caucasians)? Other whites will not consider you white unless all the non-white parent’s phenotypic genes are recessive.
Race is a sociological invention created to justify separating groups of people- specifically, to separate them from the group in power.
This vote of confidence in human infallibility on the Overwatch forums, where Brigitte released as she did.
Loads of games do drastic artistic overhauls and revise themselves in various ways. To say that everything that comes into the game is a fully conscious decision is a remarkably paranoid one.
Ignored the problem? Or were they not aware of the problem? Or is it because whether or not it is a problem is debatable? Or is it because not every game has a duty to be the solution to -your- problem?
Tell me, specifically, why this individual game -HAS- to take steps to resolve this alleged problem. Make your case as to why it has to be this game, and not another one.
No one’s calling it a freak accident, though even that is more believable than malice. It’s a product of perspective.
Ask someone who’s never seen a non-white person to imagine a human, what do you think they’ll come up with?
Ask someone in a 95% white environment to imagine a human, what do you think they’ll come up with?
You can keep dialing down the percentage, and eventually the answer will change. But the point is that as long as the environment you’re in is predominantly white, character design rooted in your own perspective will default to white.
THAT is why white is common for American/European dev, and Asian is common for Asian dev. It’s not malice, it’s not a freak accident, it is a product of its environment and the perspectives from the people in that environment.
Yes, it IS possible to produce an ethnically diverse cast in your game despite a predominantly white environment, but it requires an active push for that goal, which Overwatch seems to have had but many games don’t. Which brings us back to: Why is it any -particular- game’s problem to solve?
And again: Not actively pushing for diversity is NOT an act of malice. Stop being paranoid.
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Isnt Ana, Sombra black…? Or am I missing something?
I wouldn’t think of her as black.