as a tank player I cannot wait for 5v5. no more pushing W only to wonder why my other tank is still at the choke when they were down one and now I’m dead cause he didn’t W. no more wondering where my heals went because the tank that doesn’t push W was reinhardt and i’m dva so even though i’m flying up to highground to deal with the sniper killing our healers, they heal him and not me cause i’m “feeding” and he’s “playing carefully”. no more people asking me to zarya instead of dva. no more balance philosophy that it’s ok for one tank to be literally unplayable for 2 years in a 5 year expiry date game, because “if you run that tank with others it’s broken”.
i don’t get at all what anyone is whining about. to hell with the hero select card game. to hell with teams dictating what you play and throwing if you don’t listen. yes i want to be able to just focus on what i can do to win this game and not care about anyone else.
there will still be teamwork, i will be peeling for my healers and enabling my dps with my protective DM. but i will not be reliant on anyone, and therefore no one can throw the game just because they dislike what i chose.
I would agree with you if role lock were removed in 5v5. It’s not, and it’s one tank per team, so teamwork does disappear. As for team reliance - well, “Ana nano me” stays, so it’s kind of still here lol.
it’s a team vs team game. inherently for teams of equal skill, the team with better teamwork will perform better. you don’t need to hard bake team dependence in the heroes’ kits in order to provide benefits to teamwork.
we can see this in games where character kits are more independent yet teamwork still is very beneficial.
e.g. paladins and battlerite. despite characters there being vastly more independent, peeling in those games, combos, coordinated dives, etc. are very much still very beneficial.
In those games it’s very possible for even one character to single handedly turn the tide of battle with certain ults and combos though that we don’t see in overwatch anymore, that’s my whole point.
Overwatch consistently, regularly nerfs ults and characters that are able to do ‘too much’ because players consistently complain about it. Mercy’s mass res, Tracer’s pulse bomb, Hanzo’s dragons being boosted etc.
The moves in overwatch that let you, a singular player, get value by killing much of the enemy? That is consistently DENIED and reduced over and over through dev choices, thus forcing us to be more team reliant and to work together in order to get kills.
Now we’re removing a tank and we’re told that the game is somehow going to be less team reliant but also still reward Teamwork?
Like; all I see is chaotic changes done across the board that will be confusing to the player base so that no one can get a proper assessment, because at this point no one can tell if it’s a team game or team deathmatch.
you’re ignoring the point being made which is that teamwork (i.e. peeling, combos, coordination, etc.) are still very important and beneficial in those games. it’s not a dichotomous thing.
by that logic, why don’t they also
remove mobility and sustain from dps roles
remove all mobility, damage and any other self defence mechanisms in the support role
and remove all damage from the tank role
to hard bake in “needing teams to work together”? why don’t they need to do that (such is the state of the game rn) for teamwork to matter?
that’s the point I’m making. you don’t need to hard bake in high team reliance in order for teamwork to matter.
as long as every hero is balanced to the same standard of team reliance/dependence, then teamwork will still matter inherently as it’s a team vs team environment.
there are games out there that show this. heck even sports show this.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying since May. Half this player base or more just seriously doesn’t get it. Most of us(especially on the forums), don’t know how to play OW as a team based game. So they are going to keep the teamwork interactions like you mentioned, Zarya’s bubble, Sound Barrier etc and just allow for the game to be a bit more forgiving.
It really does only take 1 bad player on any given team to just ensure a loss and in most cases with bad elos, you have 3 or 4 bad teammates across all 3 roles half the time. I think this is going to end up resulting very similar to how OW1 launched, chaos abound but this time with added structure(role queue).
Without team reliance, teamwork disappears too. As unnecessary element, that only adds more things to mess up.
And whole “actually want to play the role” - it also means actually wanting to exploit your teammates, if it’s part of your role. Sacrificing them, instead of yourself.
Because you can never be sure, that your sacrifice won’t be wasted.
There is literally a patent on this
in their portfolio of rigging.
It’s the “rigged for teamplay” patent that basically gives hidden buffs and passives to players that “work together” which in their very limited interpretation means being grouped up.
It fails to reward lonewolf types who hold entire flanks or parts of the map.
And it fails to reward small breakout fights like 2v3 degen conditions.
It promotes reset/regroup/rescript and it has no place in gaming unless you want absolute potatoes running the asylum. You know the type, the grills thats scream “group up” “help me” etc so they can heal u and can’t kill 1hp tanks or flankers). Lather rinse repeat until all-in with ults focused on 1-2 targets at 1-2% of the map.
The tech is pukeworthy and I hope it isn’t in OW2. And honestly the people that backed/patented that kind of rigging should be gone from the workforce.
Teamplay != grouping up.
Teamwork != grouping up.
Frankly it’s a crutch not a reward. You should get bonus rewards for living off the land and winning a bunch of micro-mechanical interactions ON YOUR OWN. – i.e. not costing team resources. If everyone plays in their lane, holds their own, and comes together for key moments than you have your arena/tdm Overwatch without rigged teamplay bonuses which prop up terrible players and punish good ones.
I’m not sure if that’s how the patent works but it wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve also patented that. They have patented every kind of rigging under the sun and yet not a single thing on true fairness.
Those are patents, that supposed to make game fun to watch. And teams being spread out makes killstreaks(most exciting part of game, apparently) disappear - simply because single player takes more time moving, than actually getting kills.
It was funny watching the pro’s play. They smoke a tank and boom it’s an easy team fight. Regroup and boom tank goes down team fight over. It will ping pong like that for hours in some cases.
Here is simple, but sad, fact - unless teamwork produces reliable results, it doesn’t happen.
For example, pocketing - beginner stage of teamwork, when support and DPS/tank decide to act together. Unless it changes results(DPS starts getting killstreaks, tanks starts to survive), players just won’t do it. And if they aren’t doing it at this basic level, expecting them to level up(include 3, 4 and more players in shared plan) becomes ridiculous.
you have point about watchability and the like.
personally i’m sick of deathball all-in comps (brawl/rush, bunker, even dive is basically clumped engages after a small poke phase). It just doesn’t reveal the finesse or tempo of oldschool OW because the TTK padding emphasizes macro and buffers away a lot of opportunity for punishing micro mistakes.
“out of position” instead of being rewarded for breaking away from the heard, being cheeky, trying to get some flank/highground, or take a duel etc…just ends up costing you feed (i.e. ult/macro/retake/round/gg).
which is why at top levels everything devolved into “in position” meaning rotations/rollouts as a tight formation/group with tanks in front etc.
boring imo and just not how the 90% of the ladder should behave.
It’s just crappy that somehow we’re not supposed to be bothered by the idea that there’s a chance our gameplay isn’t entirely legitimate; Personally I hate it on a level of principal that seems obvious to me, but apparently we’re just supposed to not care if the game is being tweaked so that it will be ‘more fun to watch’? That’s just not how it should be at the end of the day.
I remember reading up on some patents a while ago about how they would allow for worse aim/include larger hitboxes based on how well you were performing in other games, like, depending on your performance compared to your team, the enemy would be easier to hit than they should be in real gameplay, etc. That just bothers the heck out of me. It should just be… fair. And no matter WHERE I wind up on the ladder, that’s fine, as long as it’s legitimate.
More like you aren’t supposed to notice or care. Especially if it gives you easy wins. Why would you doubt yourself and your “amazing skills”, and suspect, that someone was pulling the strings and your position is undeserved?
you are 100% correct regarding the patents rigging not just who your teammates will be for/against, but in-game params.
i believe they don’t do it at pro level or even high ranks, because it would be too scandalous.
but it’s quite obvious in lower ranks for the sake of accessibility and inclusion.
Seems ‘tolerable’ outside of comp, but not in comp ladder. Comp ladder integrity requires everything be a meritocracy, no one propped up/down by hidden rigging however losely defined.
There have actually been many matches where I don’t understand why I have four gold medals when it feels like I’m not actually doing that well, or games where I know I landed that shot but the damage didn’t happen; I was blaming it on potato teammates and latency but I suppose it’s possible it’s the rigging in the works that I’ve just not been mentally calculating as a possibility before.
It’s not many games by the numbers, but maybe 5% of the matches just feel weirdly wrong, like no matter what I do I either can’t lose or can’t win. Goes both ways.
Before someone posts “stop with conspiracy theories” and “you don’t know how probability works” - if your chance of winning is at 10%, practically it has little difference from 0%.
bro there is no secret heals for grouping up, take a deep breath. as a tank who literally posted a few days ago about an ana that literally walked right past me rather than heal when i returned with half health (letting me get demeched instead of rewarding us with healer ult charge for my self control returning from a dive with half health). the HPS you are getting healed without an actual healer ability being used on you, active or otherwise, is zero.
anyways, the main thing preventing solo play in OW1 is the second tank. so just take a chill pill and have fun when OW2 comes out. cause then the tank is making a choice to leave their team without them, if they come after you.