Talon Did Nothing Wrong: A Explicative On How Talon Saves the World from Overwatch's Stupidity

Yes but it is still gray.

They are still stuck in that middle ground.

Nobody is really “born” evil and nobody is born a “saint” It’s what makes everyone human. Sure, some do more than others, good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

They need to use “villains” or “good guys” because again, it’s less controversial to all of this thinking and just overall sells.

Many “terrorist” groups have a great goal in mind and their targets might seem ok, but the WAY they try to accomplish that also has to count. The means to get to the end matter.

Look at Thanos, we can’t argue with the results and the end goal but god damn that was S A V A G E. Same applies to Talon.

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No, there are people who can be objectively right or objectively wrong. Nobody is the villain of their own story, but real life doesn’t have protagonists.

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Exactly. You nailed it. So in other words, it’s all controversial.

Actually I take it back. Doomfist might be considered someone that is an “enemy” since nobody wants to die and he wants to kill people.

No, you’re reaching the opposite conclusion of my entire point.

Real life doesn’t have protagonists, so it doesn’t matter if everyone sees themselves as a good person–sometimes, you just aren’t.

Well, so far, the only one I can say is “bad” is Doomfist otherwise, everyone else is just seeking what they do. Moira is for science, Widow is brainwashed, Sombra wants the truth, and gabe…who knows?

But killing innocents is a bad thing. Doomfist wants to purge the world of people, so yeah, he is extreme from others.

Now, him being right or wrong on the matter is another story because scientifically, who knows? Morally, we all know. So heart against mind here.

Amelie was brainwashed, but “Amelie” is pretty much gone. There’s only Widowmaker now, who is even more of a killer than Doomfist.

Moira’s character runs on a “take our word for it” perspective that the scientific achievements she has made have been at great value to the world at large. We’re never really told what she’s done wrong, or what she’s invented that was was so innovative. Even her experiment with Gabe was done at his own consent, so we can’t hold that against her as one of her “crimes”.

Not to mention that Talon is also filled with extremely petty and corrupt individuals. They’re connected to Vishkar, who wants to rule an orderly Brazil and are willing to blow up families to do so, they were behind the deteriorating conditions of King’s Row, where Omnics are killed on sight and forced to live in underground slums, and they want to track down and kill anyone with even the POTENTIAL to stop them, such as all the former members of Overwatch (even the ones who are retired) and Baptiste, who was so disgusted with their methods that he left.

Even McCree has flat out said that Blackwatch (who would later merge into Talon) was more diabolical than the Deadlock Gang–a gang that blew up a train to steal its cargo.

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But it’s not her fault. She had no say so morally, she is innocent. She never consent to doing these things and thusly, should not be held accountable logically.

Yeah, so it goes to show that good or bad, people do things regardless of the title to what they feel is “right” Again, one person’s right is another wrong but the scale of that varies. In their eyes, they are all doing something good for good. So, it determines as what is gray and what isn’t. Blackwatch plays by their rules but they fall under Overwatch who are for the people and the world.

Talon, who knows how many made a mistake, for instance, Baptiste. He says sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do. He learned that it was wrong to kill, but it was because he himself, witness those same horrors to help him make a decision. Many others are not so lucky. That’s why there are things called “Second chances”

We have trained professionals use torture to make people speak if we need to for confidential purposes. Is that wrong? Depends on the situation and how you view it. Some say yes, others say no. If the guy they are torturing has info on troops and he is an enemy and the troops are being killed, and we need him to spill it, is it still wrong? Again, it depends.

So overall, while there is a line to more drastic things, people need to see the bigger picture first and understand the situation. That’s why I say “gray” because everything usually has a reason and nobody usually does things without a purpose. What that purpose is? Who knows?

Even though Doomfist wants to get rid of people, he thinks he is helping the world. IS that an excuse just to kill people? Maybe? Maybe not? As of now, he feels he is right and trying to help. Morally, we know it’s wrong, but he thinks he is right. Again, he might have factual evidence behind what he thinks that might be understanding, but facts and morals always go at each other since both are opposites in nature.

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Literally hundreds of omnics were brainwashed and used to kill humans. A single brainwashing is a penny in the bucket by comparison and was necessary to further scientific understanding of brainwashing and defeat a man who was coming close to destroying Talon entirely -the potentially last hope humanity has of surviving in a world with unchecked omnic power. If your enemy uses a specific type of weapon in great supply and you can use that weapon too to defeat them and other enemies, then you have to not hesitate in using it too or you will be defeated. The wife who chose to marry the enemy of humanity’s chief hope for survival was both the most lenient and effective pick for brain-washing Talon could make. Talon made the right call.

It doesn’t matter anymore. What Talon did to her was unforgivable, yes, but Widowmaker is now a remorseless psychopath. The ideal solution would be to undo her brainwashing and help her rehabilitate and cope with the pain she’s caused, but we don’t even know if that’s possible.

As I said, it doesn’t matter how they see themselves in their eyes, because real life doesn’t have protagonists. Just because you see yourself as the hero of your own story doesn’t mean you’re right about it.

The greatest form of evil is one that is unnecessary, or done by mistake. Every person thinks their brand of evil is necessary and controlled, and most of them are wrong.

Second chances are matters of convenience. Just because anyone CAN reform does not mean that they WILL. If a criminal pulls a gun on an innocent person, that person doesn’t know if the criminal will ever reform. We don’t have the benefit of hindsight when we’re living in the moment.

This isn’t how societies work.

Human beings cannot function if everyone adopts a utilitarian “one person suffers for the greater good” mindset. You cannot torment a minority of people, or even one person, for the greater good and expect society to function. Because every single person in that society will live in fear that one day it will be their turn.

I hate to invoke Godwin’s law, but it needs to be said: a stronger society built on the backs of the suffering of the unfortunate was exactly how WW2 Germany worked. Not to mention pre-Civil War America.

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All societies have the poor, the ostracized, the abused, the ignored, and the down-trodden. This person specifically married the main military mastermind targeting their organization. It was a choice that she on some level should understand is dangerous and he should know could lead to her being targeted. She is not a minority -she is a product of choices she and her husband both made knowing on some level the risks involved.

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depends … human biological evolution would take awhile, at least a few generations. however, human socio evolution, like political movements, can take just a very short time. to bring about true change in humans, one just needs to change minds to bring about new actions that change the world. 50 years ago, no one thought a roman catholic could be president (JFK) let alone a black man 50 years after …

And if those things are left unchecked, that society collapses.

There’s a reason that societies have stricter penalties against those who attack peace officers or their families. Because, again, the society literally can’t function if those officers cannot perform their duties in a civilian capacity.

Even under rules of war, harming a soldier isn’t a war crime–but torture and attempts at brainwashing are. People like to scoff at things like “rules of war” like the Geneva Conventions, but they exist specifically because if an attempt to sanction horrific practices isn’t made, every single faction and human society as a whole suffers for it.

So, to summarize, you are directly comparing Talon to a radical supremacist group, domestic terrorists, AND war criminals, and you are justifying this as being in the right.

True, but social evolution made under duress tends not to last very long. Just using said Black president as an example, you can see how extreme the pushback was after it happened.

There’s a real danger right now that many of the lessons learned during the World Wars and Civil Rights eras have been wholesale forgotten, because current generations do not have the ensuing factors that led to them. (Millions dying in war and holocaust due to unchecked nationalism, and Jim Crow laws, respectively.)

Considering that omnics have clear supremacy and Talon actively acknowledges the threat of that, that would actually make Talon the opposite of a supremacist group considering they know they’re not superior to unchecked omnic power. Revolutionaries, rebels and guerilla warriors throughout history have been dubbed terrorists and later dubbed heroes often regardless of if they do something that breaks a rule of war. Since omnics can and were brain-washed, Talon is obligated to do the same for their own self-preservation against that very threat.

Omnics don’t have ANY power except that which humans allow them to, so I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Omnics literally only have two countries where they’re allowed any sort of power equal or greater to humans: Numbani and Oasis. Even when they were supposed to have Australia, that was because the United Nations allowed them to have it, until the Australians blew up their own country to keep the Omnics from having it.

You mean the UN allowed omnics to steal land from Australian natives and the natives DIDN’T consent? And here I thought Talon was supposed to be this edgy evil group.

Just because another group did something wrong or unethical doesn’t make Talon correct.

Besides that, Talon is trying to do pretty much the same thing by forcing Brazil into Vishkar authority or blowing them all up if they don’t comply.

So is that evil or not? You can’t have it both ways.

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Conflict in nature bred a need for a type of animal to uniquely congregate and unify. The need had to exist for that response to occur -unity too is a part of evolving to handle conflict. Likewise, Talon has congregated and begun exchanging highly valuable knowledge in response to perceived conflict in the current nature of the world. I have to say your post is awfully high-handed considering how flatly wrong it is.

It’s one thing to cynically believe in ‘acceleration through escalation’ but to directly justify the idea of permanent struggle is oof. The Doomfist paragraph was really uncomfortable to read tbh.

Conflict weakens, obliterates, and ends civilizations. It hinders progress, even just as a widespread mentality.

Ironically, what’s actually a common theme in history is ‘evolution’ only after the people thinking like this, justifying killing and destroying so much, are gone. The solution almost always being the very thing your ‘anti-heroes’ fought tooth and nail.

Talon stands in the way of progress. Man is good. :wink:

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