Symmetra was nerfed within 9 days for being 4th picked DPS

Just because half a dozen streamers play her doesnt mean she is in a good state.

GM/OWL play Sombra all the time, but she is still trash for 99.99% of the playerbase and the same is true for Sym.

Just because the Flaming Dodos or Jumping Madrid or whatever pro team used her for Liang Tower gardens TP cheese while needing coordinated team-wide pocketing doesnt mean Sym is in a good place, that just means team TP is so massively broken they elect to support Sym to insanely high degrees to excuse its use.

This game was made to be played, not watched.

how is it wrong tho? without tp being as frequent as old 3.0 tp, she has

  • no mobility to access flanks,
  • no mobility to get turrets in the more immediately valuable active places without risking being shot down,
  • hardly having mobility available enough to get in her effective range often enough.

all leading to gameplay that’s predominantly passive turret placements with orb spam outside their effective range which is all she can do as she needs to wait for either flank routes to be made accessible by the team or for the team to pocket her primary.

how is that not the gameplay of sym<=2.0?

Because they are skill based heroes.

I am not even talking owl. I am talking community. t500, gm, masters level average joe players.

Not every hero is made for every rank.

The reason a lot of old high level players dwell on the first few seasons, were because heroes like Tracer, Genji,, Winston, Zen, and Ana were the meta. They were all heroes about coordination, resource management, and positioning.

If in the last 2 years, Genji was an “average” pick, which he wasn’t, he was below average, top players have been able to remain at the top with him, such as Necros, then surely the same can happen with Sym.

And a few have, but the reality is that at top level Sym is not fun to play for most. That is why they don’t change her often, because there is so little top level data on her, that they don’t know what she needs changed.

Sombra being bad for the rest of the player base is PERFECT. (and also just not true)

because that means they have a skill based character who needs a lot of work to be mastered and played at a high level (sombra is not the best example of this, but I think you get the idea.)

Because she wasnt supposed to be a mobile hero? Not every hero should aspire to be a bootleg Tracer, and that you think that the playstyle you became enamoured with is the apex of Sym gameplay is literal hubris.

Because Sentries were supposed to be a zone control ability - not to actively supplement Sym’s damage. Flying deploy sentries wasnt supposed to be for that still didnt make them that due to the inherent weaknesses of just throwing them, and the only reason why people want them removed is because they see Sym TP-ing 3 sentries behind them while ignoring their travel time and getting melted on an uninteractive mess of an interaction.

Not Every Hero Needs Mobility. I Dont Want Tracerwatch. And No One Should.

This might come as a surprise but not every hero wants to play like Tracer. Like literally how do you think that every hero without blinks plays?

I swear mobility rots people’s brains.

You know this has literally no meaning right? Skill at this point is a buzzword, because it can mean literally anything or nothing at a hat’s drop.

And no, they arent such skillful heroes that only pros can and should use them. They are grossly overnerfed heroes who have OP enough utility to excuse their use regardless of how awful they are performing their base role.

As Genji dominates Silver and Bronze, this is literally meaningless drabble.

No its because they miss when their heroes had little to no counterplay and counterpicks.

You got proof that he was a ‘‘below mediocre pick’’ beyond streamer feelies?

Speak for yourself I dont care Sombra is strong. Unlike QQers I never had an issue dealing with her.

The reason why OWL ever picks Sym is not some hard to master pinpoint accuracy needed to use mechanic, its literally just team TP.

Its hilarious how people think Genji takes skill anymore while Genji streamer winrate skyrocketed by ludicrous amounts and Genji can contest Moira’s winrate at Bronze and Silver while being a top 3 picked dps in EVERY SINGLE RANK.


Remember how she was reworked because she the developers wanted “to make her more viable” on attack and stuff like that, and so they changed every single aspect about her kit?

So they change her TP to be on a cooldown, to be fast and fluid, making it way more dynamic. Now she has this interesting ability on a cooldown that allows her more or less zoom around the map.

And then they started nerfing it. The big nerfs were how quickly you could go in and out of it, drastically reducing how effective it actually was for quick and dynamic play. But keep in mind, still with this she was more or less viable (at least in my opinion) in most situations.

And then they changed her TP to be permanent, which from what I’ve seen most people play her on first point defense and then just put her TP down at spawn to let people get to point a little bit faster. The other use is on like 2 maps where she’s again being used only for her TP, but this time it’s on attack (hanamura, liajang)

Combine this with the nerfs to literally every single aspect about her kit turned her from a first point defense TP bot (2.0), to a first point defense TP bot, with 2 maps for attack sprinkled in there. An absolute failure.


Because they decided that team TP point A cheese was more important that Sym 3.0’s shoddy viability.

I didn’t mean the one you quoted. Your quote is from the new forum.

Way before that. They said they don’t balance around pick rates in the OLD FORUMS.

All the stats we have here are pick rates and win rates which are incomplete due to private profiles.

As for the causes that drive whatever feelings, they are not necessarily hero bias, OWL numbers, it could also be:

It’s possible that they nerfed Sym because they felt her power level was detrimental to the gameplay experience.

Whatever it is, I don’t believe it’s because “we love Genji and hate Sym.” That’s the biggest “feeling-based” argument that has zero stat or fact backing that up. And as Josh said it:

And now people here accept that bs as fact.

Sym 2.0 also had a really strong 2nd point and could at worst scare off flankers from her healers. She was a defense specialist but she was utterly devoted to that and it showed. Having Photon barrier and lock-on did help massively. And piercing orbs too. Also Shield Gen was really strong and solved just about every 2nd point issue in her kit.

Sym right now is a troll pick as a defensive hero and her only value on point defense is placing a TP because she gets dunked on by basically everything that isnt a tank. You are right about the sprinkled usability on attack maps tho.

it was detrimental to the gameplay experience because they don’t like her :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:


It borders on cute how you think that Sym is being picked because of her whole kit and not despite it. Hint: Sym is only being picked in maps where TP is so absurdly broken that it excuses using her for her deficient current kit.

Personally, I could like to pick my favorite hero without being bashed and reported, or forced to pray for a cooperative team that joins me on a TP cheese strats because thats all Sym has left anymore.

You don’t think it’s a little ironic that that quote you took part of was literally from a dev post saying “Genji isn’t as bad as people think he is” ???

And you’re trying to somehow turn that against my claim? When they then gave him 6 buffs in a row? Yet Sym is dumpstered?

Am I reading this correctly?


Maining Genji seems to cause incurable idiocity.


ok so which do you want: literal zarya clone or ground pharah/immobile hanzo?

sustain, burst, mobility and effective range are fundamental parameters for every hero including supports.

no mobility on squishy hero means upping range and some way of bypassing how shields easily counter them or making them have really high sustain (esp if sustain damage rather than burst).

  • for a shorter ranged sustain hero with no mobility, we objectively see we need zarya levels of sustain for that to work.
  • for higher range squishy like a sniper, even they need mobility to escape flankers and to grab angles to bypass shields to not be obsolete

the former can’t be given because sym isn’t a tank and she’d be oppressive once given that sustain. any less sustain and her primary will always be niche and team dependent. the latter would be more independent and less niche but wouldn’t be viable anyways because hitscans are better than projectiles anyways.

even reaper has burst, sustain, and most importantly, frequent enough mobility for him to use his shorter ranged weapon for hero uptime. current tp has lower mobility than reaper’s. old 3.0 tp was nowhere near tracer level mobility and leaves room for making orbs more of a midranged weapon to reach a good distribution of levels across the parameters.

what’s going to contribute more over long periods of time:

  • warding an area for long periods of time even tho no intruders were going to try to access it for a long time, or
  • warding an areas where the enemy is currently using or will soon use after setting up?

No, because that was 6 months ago.

None? I pick none, because its not Sym will get changes anytime soon. Again the fact that you think that a Sym who isnt playing like a Tracer is going to be boring and/or brainless makes me think that you just want a hipster alternative to Tracer.

The least thing this game is even more rampart mobility.

Less that half of the playable heroes have combat/centralizing mobility to the levels of a flanker.

Having a personal shield, a worthwhile primary and potentially 275 HP was enough for years, aside from Sym worst match-ups.

You dont need tank level HP, defensives or sustain to be a sucessful close range dps.

You are looking at the wrong tree if you think that Sym changes should be aimed to make her primary work, instead of having a primary fire that is good at close range without the need of giving her tank survivability. Like every other close range dps.

There is a massive difference between what you want and Reaper has - his sustain and higher HP and burst are balanced because he cant move around the battlefield like a squirrel on crack, he gets in and he gets out, but not to the levels that Tracer can.

Hero design is (most of the time) a give and take to maintain uniqueness without making heroes downright overpowered. Power budget is a thing, Tracer will never have any of the utility Sym has, because she has mobility and damage.

A Sym with Tracer mobility could need to sacrifice everything that made her Sym. At that point just ask Blizz for a brownface Tracer skin.

Why are you warding an area that no one is going to touch instead of setting up safe zones for your healers and/or sniper teammates and/or TP/SG.

Like the point? You know, where Sym’s team should be? Aside memeing with TP construct or hoping that they dont get meleed instantly during combat, Sym’s sentry use hasnt changed much, except they are weaker, have a token and useless amount of HP and are simply half of what they used to be.

And literally nothing changed except Genji counters getting nerfbats left and right. Genji was still 6th most picked hero, far from trash tier, unless ‘‘not dominant’’ means ‘‘trash tier’’ in Genji main book.

And genji hasn’t gotten any nerfs during this 6 month period, instead he got shuriken fire rate speed buff and has stayed middle of the pack this whole time.

Genji was fine back then and was fine before his buffs, but they still went and overbuffed him drastically. Developer statements from 6 months back remain accurate and he was a mid tier character till his big buffs, unlike what you seem to be implying.


so what complete redesign of primary are you having in mind?

again, we know for a fact that a shorter ranged sustain damage hero without mobility demands zarya levels of sustain in this game even if you forgo charge up, (it’s sustained damage with shorter range --> need to stay in shorter range long enough for value). her old shield gen and old barrier that gave <1s cover in her effective range evidently did not meet that demand especially when that sustain is also needed to for gap closing too.

if you increase range of her weapon, ok how will you make her not be completely shut down by shields? perhaps mobility? like again, her old 3.0 tp is nowhere near tracer mobility. like look at soldier. he’s got longer ranged sustain damage weapon and he needs sprint to take up angles to bypass shields.

if you make it burst whilst keeping lower range, then we’re looking to make her like reaper who gets in and gets out like a flanker (oh look we need mobility for this). And if we go this route, they can’t have really high down time on their mobility otherwise they inherently don’t contribute enough (like current live sym).

I’m saying to go the middle ground of the 2nd and 3rd route with faster orbs (more midranged) and a more frequent to like old 3.0 tp. whch one are you going for?

my point with the question is that you’d rather active immediate value rather than passive delayed value a lot of the time.

  • in attack, you’d rather claim zones to force the enemy to give way to help your push rather than re-enforce claimed area against a flank that’s may never occur.
  • in defence you’d rather have your zones further forward either to delay the enemy or to deny them areas to help your team take them out rather than further back waiting who knows how long before the enemy arrives there.

like it’s the same logic with why spawn tps are often bad. paying upfront massive costs for a “maybe” instead of paying the same cost for a use you know will get value and sooner value too which’d also likely prevent the need of the former use anyways.

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I really hope blizzard does not take these forums seriously. Sure the opinions of pros/ streamers are not a perfect way to balance, but imagine if we balanced based on the forum warriors. 5k posts btw.

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