that people still dont understand why sym wont ever be what they want her to be?
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we just want her to be able to reasonably get decent uptime for her job on her own like pretty much every other hero that doesn’t historically/typically have viability issues.
Even without the 2s at the start Sym is more picked then these Hereos, the 2s at tge start dont even get counted into the playtime because you have to play a Hero for a bit longer time in order to count it
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Can you please explain why? And what “they” want her to be?
Everytime the conversation pops up about her she’s always compared to all the generalists…why can X have so much range…why can Y do so much damage…why does she have to be niche…etc etc…
“We just want her to be good” comes across as a bit disingenuous…because what it really sounds like is that we’d like to be able to use her whenever like everybody else…and she’s just not meant to be that…
I doubt very much that the sym discussion stops if they make her stronger and she still only gets marginal more usage…That’s not what’s actually wanted from/for her…and that’s where the disconnect lies…cause the devs don’t want her to be what we want her to be…that was never the intent for her (and it has nothing to do with favoritism)
That being said I’m sure the devs would like to make her stronger…but it’s really hard to do that without just pulling her out of the place where they want her to be…torb and bastion both suffer from this as well…it’s a very thin line
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but here’s the thing:
We’ll never come to an agreement on how good she is within her niche…the community that is (not specifically you and I)
And like I said getting that “right” …ie - perfecting that niche so that it’s “satisfactory”… is hard to do (maybe impossible)…
so I think ultimately the solution ends up being…another rework…and while I can’t say that I speak for the devs…I can pretty much guarantee you that they have next to zero interest in reworking her a 3rd time
Saw her played on Lijiang tower, broken on that map
the stats legit say she’s not good enough in her niche for how narrow it is. like when generalists are getting about the same winrate as her or even better while still being picked more often, I’m pretty sure like that’s a no-brainer conclusion…
not really. I already quoted to you the solution without need to rework (tho depends on what one defines as a rework tbh).
renumber orbs around being faster projectiles so they’re aimable in more ranges, make tp have a cd mechanic more like old 3.0 tp while making sym herself specifically able to interact with tp sooner after placement.
all those changes will do wonders for her. probs won’t fix everything, but it gets a significant way there.
I suppose failing twice would create that attitude.
How are you possibly spinning this into a bad thing from your perspective. You’re basically saying we should be okay with the idea that we’re “not supposed” to main a hero like Sym but “are supposed” to be able to main other heroes?
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bastion might have more time from when glads played him idk
doom definitely has more time, so does genji, hanzo, and reaper
Specialist doesn’t mean higher win rates…shouldn’t equate the 2…if it did then there wouldnt be a need to use anything other than the specialist ever in those spots…it just means they arent intended to function outside of their “spot” (or do 1 thing - whichever way you prefer to view it)
People will scoff but I believe 3 different OWL teams (might be more - I missed a few games) have used sym successfully this weekend…If she was truly terrible I doubt you even make the consideration let alone actually try it…
Value is a hard thing to actually measure in OW…How do you break down a mei vs a mccree for example…global win rates likewise don’t mean much…in particular when we aren’t even talking about all situations
On the contrary I think it’s actually very hard to actually pin point how good/bad she is (in her niche)…nobody is really making that analysis
Who saying it’s a bad thing? I’m Just saying that’s where the disconnect lies in the sym community…
You obviously want her to be “better”…Anybody would want their main to be…but there’s a reason why in her case it’s not going to end up improving much…
Ideally people shouldn’t main anybody…but that’s a different discussion
No, it’s as you said. Any hero main wants to be able to use their main outside of a handful of niche situations. That’s all it is.
We all want a lot of things…doesn’t mean they should or need to happen though 
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it absolutely does. win rate is legit “out of the matches they were played in, how many time did they win” i.e. “empirically, how often do they win”.
if a specialist hero is pretty much only picked in their specialty situations (where they’re strong), then they absolutely would be having higher winrates assuming they’re balanced.
if sym is only picked in her niche as everyone says to justify how low her pickrates are, then very she absolutely should have higher winrates.
how much higher than the norm/average/benchamark of 50% should be proportional to how narrow their niche is.
if they’re not it objectively means they’re weak. because it literally means “we just put a bunch of weaknesses on the hero and absolutely nothing compensates that”.
saber and myself have been through this earlier in the thread:
again, the winrates I was using in my quoted explanation was GM in the past 1 and 3 months. I laid out the logic disproving how if that winrate truly was wholey in her niche, it completely shows how bad she is.
when we talk about all situations is exactly how we see that sym is so bad because again, she’s not proportionally stronger in her niche for how narrow her niche is. and if her niche is so narrow that it’s infeasible to provide that proportional strength (which she clearly is btw), evidently they need to widen her niche and flatten out her power distribution.
and when you analyse her kit, you’ll see that the whole reason she’s even “niche” in the first place is because blizz nerfed out her capability of getting reasonable uptime for herself.
I don’t see what that abstract philosophical statement has to do with us discussing a character we like to play in a video game on a forum for said video game.
Yeah because a couple matches with OWL shows us that this is the ONLY way to play and the only viable hero choices /s
That’s a lot of assumptions there…in particular that that’s all in her niche…even though she’s just as likely to be being forced into places where you wouldn’t use her also…that’s how people would like to use her after all no? Outside her niche…
I don’t really want to get into an overbuff discussion but global pick/win rates are such bad metrics for actually discussing what goes on in game…we really do need a better stats page 5 years in…
And I meant actually used in matches this weekend by the way…I too don’t count teleporting out of spawn “using” a sym…Florida today for example were pretty deliberate with her across all of hanamura before eventually switching strategies (and think even the most fervent sym basher would have a hard time arguing that was due to sym being bad and not 2CP shenanigans)…she was legitimately used this weekend
Anyway…I’ll just say this because it’s late as all hell and I actually want to sleep:
I can accept your (and sym mains) claim that she’s weak in her niche…hell I could make that argument myself (I said it’s hard to actually gauge - not that she’s strong)…but I can confidently say that if blizz were to successfully manage to make her stronger in her niche (without making her busted) that it wouldn’t change things much…because that’s not what people really want out of her…they want the shackles off altogether…ie - no niche…and that’s never going to happen…
Because:
It’s that philosophical difference that’s keeping her from being what you want…want vs need…dev intent vs community desire