It would reduce her TTK, which is currently quite lacking.
Teamwork should AUGMENT functionality, not be a necessity for it.
1 Like
Yeahhh I kinda figured I might get a hysterical response.
Firstly, I haven’t indicated that I have any issue with the max damage output on Symmetra’s weaponry. And that’s not what is being changed here, either. The only reason I bring that up is because you incorrectly claimed that best-case scenario Symmetra didn’t do as much damage as best-case scenario Soldier. But she does.
Secondly… My justification of not buffing her lower-end damage is that her lower-end damage potential is already very high. With turrets, it can hit 210 DPS. That’s higher than the “lower-end” damage potential of most other heroes in the game–the only ones that come to mind that beat it are Bastion, Reaper, Tracer, and Roadhog. And again, I’ve not indicated that I have any problem with that as it is now. It’s got huge potential on the low end with a large chunk of that being auto-aimed, but it’s short range and depends on destructible turrets. It’s kinda like how those other heroes I mentioned are balance by short range and absurd spread and lack of auto-aim.
I wasn’t aware this is “my way” lol. I’m glad you know “my way” to speak for me. But, once again… we’re not talking top-end damage, so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up other than to create some ridiculous strawman. My issue was with her baseline being too high under the OP’s proposal–it comes too close to that upper end value, which I have already stated I’m fine with.
Why not, for example, just tune up Widowmaker so that half her shots are criticals? Her DPS is very low. This would bring her more in line with other DPS heroes.
Obviously that’s laughable… but that’s not too distant from what’s being proposed here. Except, Widowmaker doesn’t get half the damage done for her. Symmetra does, which, again, is fine currently because that’s offset by Symmetra having a lower baseline DPS on her gun.
Also…
This is rather ridiculous. Can we shoot off parts of her Photon Projector to lower her damage potential? No? Then you’re pulling away counterplay from a system that’s fine currently. Are you going to nerf Symmetra’s ability to intelligently target opponents? No? Then you’re pulling away counterplay from a system that’s fine currently.
Damage is not Symmetra’s problem. Having the microwave didn’t make her a good hero, and that’s when she didn’t even have to aim to guarantee that much damage. Her problem is that her kit is fundamentally unhelpful when the great majority of heroes have their own abilities (i.e. their own mobility, their own defensive barriers and abilities, their own damage augmentations) that render her completely superfluous except in a tiny handful of scenarios.
Upfront damage is my main outcry for this weapon. This weapon at 0 charge is the worst weapon in the game. Combined with the fact it is melee and equipped on a squishy, immobile character it resulsts in huge power inconsistency when compared to other damage dealers.
If you want to know more of the issues of her character, I suggest you read first post of my rework analysis. That is, if it is in your range of interest reading 30 minutes worth of text.
But perhaps your sophisticated gusto would color me impressed, because considered we met on every single thread, you might’ve already read it?
1 Like
Nothing you do to the beam would make it considerably better than the orbs for reasons I’ve explained before.
Burst anything is always better than sustained anything. This is OW we’re talking about.
2 Likes
This I can agree with.
It was meant to be ridiculous, much in line with your suggestion that buffing front end damage on Symmetra’s beam would require a reduction in damage from her turrets.
Your issue isn’t that she has high damage potential in a perfect world scenario, your issue seems to be that she might become viable if that damage were consistent across the board, rather than being situational, and highly undependable.
So I have to question, do you want Symmetra to be a viable asset in the roster? You’ve already downplayed her mobility aspect, which is arguably one of the more enabling pieces of her kit.
What would you do to shore up her gaps?
1 Like
Soldier is also a hero with very little team utility and is principally focused around dealing damage. He should not be the point of comparison here, though I’ve been humoring it so far.
His crit rate is 6.1%. It makes a negligible difference in his overall DPS. If you really want to factor that in, his DPS adjusted for aim goes to 65. Big difference, right? Meanwhile, Symmetra doubles her beam damage after ~1.5 seconds and subsequently triples it after ~3 seconds. That is a big difference that I discounted.
Again, as I stated before, this is anecdotal. Every Symmetra I’ve seen who actually contributes to the same and doesn’t just feed uses their turrets in conjunction with their primary fire to get kills. Over half of Symmetra’s elims in a game are turret kills, on average (14.5 as opposed to 8.5 with her gun), so I’m going to question this line of thinking.
If Soldier uses Biotic Field and Symmetra employs all three turrets, Symmetra is still getting 109.2 DPS automatically locking onto Soldier. Without her even firing, that kills Soldier in under 2 seconds. By comparison, with a critrate of 20%, Soldier would need to maintain an accuracy of 49%. That’s not particularly stacked in Soldier’s favor, considering both numbers are substantially beyond the average, and that’s discounting Symmetra ever firing a photon at him.
Yeah, that’s one of my biggest issues with Symmetra as she stands now. There’s really never a “good time” to use the beam over orbs, unless the stars align perfectly for it.
In the end, consistency wins out, and orbs are far more consistent than the beam. It’s much easier to maintain tracking on a target for the split second needed to fire off an orb and predict where the enemy will be than it is to maintain target lock on someone for an entire second.
Due to that mechanic, orbs will almost always be better, unless you can maintain an accuracy on the beam at around 78% or something insane like that. Granted, that number isn’t difficult to achieve when you’re going against a Dva, Rein, WB or Roadhog… Staring any of those characters down when you’ve got a level 1 beam, trying to get it to level 3 is a different story though.
1 Like
See that’s what I don’t understand. If you feel you can only really use it on tanks, then do that? It’s clearly designed to be initially used on a barrier, and considering how badly barriers tend to clip, the opportunity can present itself frequently. I will say the beam at full charge can melt a variety of squishies if they don’t have anything to stop you (mccree, Brig etc)
I’m personally fine with using the orbs mainly. It’s a better alternative to them being basically useless midfight.
Yeah, should it pierce barriers and walls too? LOL
I like the enthusiasm, but I don’t think this is a good idea.
Explain to me how stating that generously boosting a hero from their low-end damage to near their top-end damage would be unbalanced is ridiculous. Again, this suggestion isn’t entirely unlike asking for a hero to deal 50% more damage, but only get a 33% damage bonus on crits.
This is another strawman… My issue is that people are proposing buffs that would A) not actually fix problems with her kit, and B) make her offensive power oppressive. Basically, she’d be like Bastion–absurdly powerful in the few instances in which she’s useful, and still hardly ever actually useful. I think that’s rather poor design, and hanging onto it is not healthy for the game.
Ignoring that you’re presupposing an answer… yes. Every hero should be viable. Symmetra, currently, is not, and more damage will not make her viable–just obnoxious. Answer me this: even if we suppose that the 120 baseline DPS passes through PTR and goes to Live, under what circumstances would I be motivated to use a Symmetra over, say, a Hanzo? or a Genji, or a Doomfist? With what team comps does she suddenly have synergy but with which she lacked synergy beforehand?
Actually define a niche for her and reconfigure her kit to fit said niche, rather than trying to make her into a do-everything hero.
Let’s just say, for purposes of discussion since I’ve seen it thrown around, we go with the tankbuster niche. In this case: change her primary damage to 60/100/140, but allow it to over-penetrate barriers and reduce its tickrate to negate armor effects. Range increase to 15 m is possible, too. Sentry Turrets deal 30 DPS baseline, but get a 100% damage bonus to barriers and lower cooldown. Teleporter… can stay, I guess. Probably give her a different Ult, Photon Barrier probably can be replacing with something specifically focused on eviscerating barriers or highly discouraging their use. It’d probably be acceptable to give her 50 extra HP, particularly if you don’t go with the extended range on her gun.
That’s roughshod, but it gets the idea across. Make her really good at one job, but make sure it’s a job that’s around enough that she’ll see play beyond one out of every twenty games. Particularly as more tanks (meaning, potentially more barriers) come out, her niche expands, meaning she’d be increasingly useful over heroes who just spit out damage but are ill-adapted to handle the increased presence of barriers
By adding that one word, it ceases to be a strawman, and instead becomes an opinion. If you want to use that word, by all means do so, but use it in the correct context.
Don’t you find that ironic? Her previous iteration was more suited for todays landscape than the the current iteration. At least in so far as her alternate fire orbs piercing barriers, and her ability to deflect/negate several ultimates being utilized to great effect currently.
Honestly, I don’t want a character that deletes everything on the battlefield. We have those already in Hanzo, Ashe, etc…
I want a character that can help defend against those characters. I want something that can contribute something tangible outside of ancillary damage, and that can defend themselves in a 1v1 scenario. The previous Symmetra could do that, the new Symmetra cannot.
The loss of the extra HP via shield gen, the damage mitigation from the loss of photon shield, and the manueverability bonus lost from her lock on greatly hinders her ability to remain standing. This is the gap I want shored up most of all. Personally, I think her damage is fine. I’d like to see the first stage of her beam brought up a little, to 80 or 100, and possibly even reducing the top end damage if it’s placed somewhere else in her kit. I’m just tired of being able to do absolutely nothing against a Genji or a Winston, who previously I had a fighting chance against.
1 Like