Surefour's thoughts on healing in OW

True I won’t deny that, but changes were soon made. Also Moira came what- late 2017? We had Lucio/Moira AoE heals for a while, Brig introduced then Bap and it just keeps getting stronger. Along with some of the abilities we’ve had; this is the strongest that healing & sustain has ever been.

Ana may have been the strongest Solo healer for a short while but we’ve had strong AoE heal/sustain for years now and it’s gradually been getting stronger.

Mercys healing was 50. They specifially buffed Mercy to 60 shortly after Ana was released because nobody could compete with Anas busted hps. Oh my god, it’s in the patch notes. The obsessive hatred you all have for Moira and Brig and the way y’all shield Ana is honestly baffling to me. She literally created the first tank heavy meta in OW.

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I don’t hate Moira. I love playing her. But Ana is really the closest thing to the original design of healers. The fact that she had to shoot one target at a time to heal says a lot. Her nade’s burst heal was probably a mistake from the beginning though, and it was nerfed quite a bit in the early days.

Blizzard introduced “aura healing” (lucio, brig inspire, bap shift) so that healers can passively heal their team while focusing on other things. But they they also made aura healing really strong because those heroes NEED to pump out similar healing to ana and moira, or else their team will rage constantly for a “real” healer.

AOE healing (bap right click, moira left lick, ana nade) is kind of a no brainer for healers. It is low precision, but introduces some gamesense skills (mostly positioning). That is a perfect combo for healers. Unfortunately, the numbers are, yet again, too high.

Are we still pretending Ana’s primary fire is harder to hit on allies than Baptiste’s grenades

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The point is, this myth that keeps going around that sustain is too strong is complete BS. The sustain in this game is at the lowest it has ever been. The only time in this games history where healing was lower were the 2 months before Ana was introduced.

Anas healing is far weaker than it was at launch.
Moira launched with healing already weaker than launch Ana and has been nerfed by 15hps (biggest healing nerf ever btw)
Baptistes healing was nerfed dramatically and he launched with less healing than launch Moira who was already weaker than launch Ana.

Do you see the trend.

Ana > Moira > Bap

Each did less healing at launch then their predeccesory did at launch and all of them had their healing toned down drastically. The only way you can say that sustain has gotten stronger in this game is if you take launch Mercy as pinnacle of support balance.

Depends on the distance. Further away is harder for bap but close range it’s easier for him.

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GOATS didn’t out-sustain every other comp through massive heals, that’s a misconception. They did so through tanking and peeling resources. Zen GOATS, the most powerful variation, was actually relatively low healing.

The 2-2-2 comps that have been meta since lock was introduce have vastly more healing than Zen GOATS - and they needed so because peeling and tanking resources are now replaced by 2 obligatory DPS slots.

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This as well. People keep telling me how GOATs invalidated dps.

Well shocker to most of you, GOATs invalidated main healers as well. It used supports with the least possible combined hps.

You are completely missing the point. The point is not how much healing each hero can do. It’s who the healing is applied to. Originally it was targeted healing, with only 1 hero with AOE that was weak.

Sustain is not the lowest it has every been. It may seem that way because damage has been buffed to compensate.

Every aspect has been buffed to compensate. Hog was buffed even. Breather originally rooted him and was interruptible by normal damage. Now he can move while using it, gets a damage reduction buff, and can only be interrupted by a stun.

Damage gets too high, they buff sustain. Sustain gets too high, they buff burst damage. It’s a never ending cycle.

Show me when the sustain was weaker than this besides the 2 months before Anas launch because no support besides her has ever had the ability to negate 100% of a dps heroes damage output with their base kit.

I forgot how Hog is a support and isn’t/ hasn’t been hot garbage for almost a full year.

The nade was too strong. But her targeted healing was a sound design. IMO, this is probably where it all started.

I’m talking about the game as a whole. And he has gone back and forth between OP and hot garbage thru the existance of the game.

Again, you are missing the point. I’m not playing favorites here. The game as a whole has gone thru a cycle of buff/nerf sustain and burst, and it has gotten worse over time. Heroes have gone from being “OP” to hot garbage over and over again.

Genji was originally designed to do chip damage and he was fine for the first half of the game’s existence, and then all of a sudden he needs a buff? Now he can burst down a support before they can react and that feels really bad.

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You perceive “sustain” to be “low” because you get disintegrated when you make a positional mistake, and you ignore the fact that healing is as high as it was in busted launch Ana.

This is because people are picking burst damage heroes to chunk through your healing faster than you can apply it, and when you beg for more healing the burst damage requirements only go up, not down.

You’re in a treadmill of dying to positional error, demanding more buffs to defensive skills and healing, and then when DPS heroes get buffed demanding even more sustain when you’re causing your own problem by insisting that healing can prevent a 70 damage per hit attack from leaving any lasting damage.

Ok show it to me. Not by your feelings but with actual numbers. Which support can heal over 200hps with their base kit?

Funny, that’s basically what I said in other threads about Moira and Bap nerf

Seems like plat is good enough to understand the game.

Not sure how thats relevant. But based on your tone, I think you misunderstood what I said.

Im not saying that his grenades take “no brain”. I mean that aoe healing types are obvious choices for healers in an fps.

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Baptiste (62.5 HPS)/Moira (65 HPS) can account for 127.5 HPS on their own, no abilities involved. Ana (87.5 HPS)/Moira (65 HPS) can get to 152.5 HPS, again with no abilities involved.

Let’s also talk about fortify, kinetic grasp, rotating barriers to minimize DPS uptime, Brigitte armor, lamp, and antinade. Look at all these super defensive skills that massively boost sustain, and look at which heroes have them, and then at which heroes are being commonly played.

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While TF2 definitely got messier as Valve added a crap-ton of alternative loadouts, there are a number of things TF2 did right when looking at the base layer of balance. Burst is often attributed as the root of OW’s balance problems, so let’s compare TF2’s Sniper to OW’s Widowmaker:


The Sniper class has limited mobility: he cannot climb walls, he can’t even run fast, but he does have an all-range one-hit-KO weapon with similar charge mechanics to Widow. However, his limited mobility means three things to opposing players:

  1. Sniper can only be in a limited number of useful places on the map.
  2. Sniper cannot easily escape if attacked.
  3. A displaced sniper (relocating or returning from spawn) will require travel time to set up again.

In TF2, map design combined with the sniper’s limited mobility will dictate the best sightlines, and players on both teams can learn these spots and plan accordingly. Snipers in TF2 cannot simply throw themselves to the most advantageous position on a whim - they often cannot get there at all.


Widowmaker, due to grappling hook:

  1. Can be literally anywhere on the map, including flying through the air.
  2. Can escape or buy time with grapple.
  3. Often requires no travel time to relocate when displacing/setting up.

Since there are basically no limitations on where Widow can go, and very little downtime when changing locations, the threat of her one-shot burst damage isn’t something you can really play around without heavily investing in shields or having your own equally skilled Widow to counter.

IMO, the cooldown on grapple should actually be way longer - like 30 seconds long. Widow’s damage and range are fine - she’s a sniper, that’s the intent of the hero - but that combo is far too powerful to also have mobility.

Which would matter if not only were these healers never used in combination because that is only what twits in low elos who don’t understand how healer combos work do, this is still less than what Ana + Lucio did in the original triple tank meta where I repeat, the meta dps was soldier 76 not some burst damage dps. And a weaker version of him btw.

Let’s talk about how barriers are paper thin and weakest they have ever been, defense matrix is weaker than it has ever been, Lamp has been nerfed significantly oh and antinade had tremendous nerfs after the above mentioned triple tank meta and overheal now can only be applied through ultimates.

We also have less defensive ults as we lost mass rez and Sym teleporter and the overheal provided by her shield hp and torbs armor packs.

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I played a ton of TF2. In pubs, in competitve, everywhere. You cant just compare widow to sniper like that.

In tf2, there was NO good ranged damage other than 1) sniper, 2) ambassador, 3) sticky launcher.

In overwatch, there are:

  • two snipers,
  • multiple long-medium range hitscan heroes
  • multiple high velocity, low drop off projectile heroes
  • multiple healers that can return damage from range
  • barriers

Widow is forced to play like a rat, because she cant just hold down an area with her presence. At least, not as easily as TF2 sniper.

you can say that is more or less fun. But at the end of the day grapple hook makes sense for OW.

Because the triple medic CJ is so awesome