Support were balanced to fix the Meta Issue?


#21

I listened to both of the videos. They were interesting, so thanks for the pointers.

I think the analysis of Zen in the second video is solid, but it also doesn’t indicate any real problem. His lack of mobility is the reason I don’t like playing Zen, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s generally better game design for players to have love/hate relationships with the roster instead of feeling “meh” about everyone. (Assuming they aren’t universally disliked.) The key problem they point out is his vulnerability to snipers and, to a lesser extent, dive. It’s easy to adjust both Zen’s durability and sustain simultaneously by just increasing his shield hp. Which, I suppose sort of makes the case for adding mobility to Ana instead of sustain so their kits don’t overlap.

I think the Mercy analysis in that video is a bit too one-dimensional, because it doesn’t give enough weight to the “mid fight” damage mitigation provided by CC (stun, boop, sleep).

As for Lucio… I agree with @Jaxtaro. The short duration and decay on Lucio’s ult is specifically to make it strong against burst damage. For reference, regarding the recent ult buff:

They essentially increased the timing window for using Lucio’s ult too early, but didn’t address the window for using it too late which is currently pretty unforgiving. Using it too late means it doesn’t resolve, because you’re dead before the animation finishes. Personally, I’d rather it was instant speed with the original shield health, but if they want to keep the “predictive” skill component of it, then they could cut the cast time down to 0.4 seconds.

Increasing the casting speed of his ult doesn’t change what it does at all. It’s just making the skill requirement to use it less severe. The timing window is currently too unforgiving for an ult.

PS:
Do we have any evidence they use pick rate for balance decisions? That would be a rather strange thing to do. I’m sure it’s weighed when there is a really low pick rate outlier, but pick rates vary and fluctuate for a lot of non-balance reasons (aesthetics, easy of use, pick rates of counters, synergies, etc).


#22

Not really, though, because they increased the amount of extra health he provides without touching the decay time. So while you get 50% more protection, it also degrades 33% faster. I predict the net difference to be zero.


#23

If they didn’t change the decay time, and increased the starting value by 50%, then it’s 50% higher at every time point. It’s a significant buff. Just not the buff it needed.


#24

While I can also agree 100% that the buff to Lucio’s Ultimate I believe did not really change much but the skill floor of the ultimate ability. The solution would be increasing his mid game support capability. By increasing his healing from 16hps to 20hps his Ult gain increase in the process. Secondly, either decreasing the decay time or decreasing the ultimate cost would be the next step in rounding out his support ultimate. Since, everything Zen cannot counter he can. I think decreasing the cost to match Zen’s Ult would be sufficient enough.

But, before this gets off topic I would like to still point out something that I think most people are neglecting. Because of how low the support pool is, and because of how many characters are in the game. I think making every combination of 2 supports viable is indeed needed. Tanks, are allowed to pair up with just about any tank and make it work. This also applies to just about any DPS pair. For some reason, supports tool kits are just soo far north and south that there is very little consistency in every aspect of a match. #MidGamePlayMatters this is why Mercy is picked over them, because of how flexible she is and the fact that she comes with a Rez. What I see is that, the utility of some supports is focused so much that the dev’s justify keeping their heals abysmally low to the point that if you don’t need their utility, they become a LIABILITY since they heal for trash.

No support should be a liability since they are all capable of healing. Because, it should always ALWAYS come down to skill. Just because a supports utility is a not needed their heals should not become a liability. If anyone has played an off meta character and is good at that character, you know the worst feeling in the world is to find the perfect moment to capitalize with your utility and kill 2 maybe even 3 targets! But, because of how much of a liability that character was during the mid-game, the push was already lost! This is a classic off meta DPS problem!

Supports suffer the same fate due to a simplistic issue of not healing enough. Increasing Zenyatta, Lucio, & Brigitte’s healing by a small overall factor of 5hps to make their heals viable at all times! Then second, add damage resistance to Brig’s Repair pack and Zen & Mercy healing tethers to give these select supports control over mitigating high burst damage to a small 10% for both females and giving Zen 15% since he lacks AOE healing like Brig’s and a powerful midgame utility like Mercy Rez. The domino effect this would have on the game would be phenomena!!!

The return of Lucio & Zen! The beginning of Zen & Brigitte! The counter sniper potential that Brig’s would have by giving 75 armor to a target & 10% damage resistance would allow long range characters like Soldier and Mccree to safely duel a Widow or Hanzo for control over high ground knowing they cannot be 1 shot thanks to Brigitte for 4 seconds! The birth of Sombra + Zen. Or Brigitte + Sombra! Drastically increasing sombra’s pick rate. Not to mention, how offensive Reinhardt would be able to be knowing he has a bonus 10%-15% damage resistance available. Or Brig’s seeing a Widow about to snipe a squishy and tossing repair pack in anticipation to the shot. All, these changes due to the supports increase healing would create more room for other non-support characters to be more aggressive. There really is no downside that I can see? To all possible pair’s of supports having truly viable healing and a select few having damage resistance.

Some might argue that, “These changes to supports will make the fight’s take longer” This is not necessarily the case. Take the new Biotic Grenade I proposed.

Nano boost provide’s 30% damage resistance and 30% damage bonus to a single target. Now, if Ana grenade’s that target. They now do a bonus 45% and that is just from Ana. Add a Mercy damage amp and they do 75% bonus damage! Or if you want to really aim high, use Discord instead of Mercy, the way discord works with other damage bonus additives would make a single target take 89% bonus damage instead of 75% that Mercy would give.

Give that type of damage to a Reinhardt or Solider who is using Tactical Visor would be very powerful. Simultaneously give the Biotic Grenade and Mercy damage amp to a single DPS they are going to do the same damage Nano would apply. BUT THEN!!! This allows Ana to Nano a second target! This would be just the tip of the ice burg when it comes to how high offensive potential would go with select characters! The trickle effect of making every support pair viable, would make every tank pair viable, and every dps viable! IT WOULD END THE META CYCLE!!!
Removing the direct damage from Biotic grenade simple makes the grenade less of an independent tool and more dependent. This also makes, diving a heal-nade target not advantageous. But, does not mean it is not achievable with help!
These changes would truly allow the utility other supports bring to florish in their correct direction. Ana, Brig’s and Zen would be offensive aiding supports. While Lucio and Moira are dive ready supports! And Mercy would be an all around support capable of aiding in any of these categories, not to the same degree! But enough to matter. While still providing Rez!


#25

My hypothesis is that without compensatory buffs to Mercy and Ana’s single target healing, the AoE healing buffs would shift the meta to triple tank plus Moira, Lucio and Brig. So goats-like comps. Whether that’s good or bad, I dunno. It’d certainly narrow the usable hero pool a lot.

If you bumped Mercy’s healing beam back up to 60 hps, and had the 10% damage reduction apply to both her power up beam and healing beam, including during her ult, then that’d probably balance it out.

Not sure about Ana. The grenade changes you suggest do increase her healing, but I don’t think the grenade has enough range to promote 2-2-2. It’s sort of a goats buff too, but Ana can’t really drive that.

Tanks actually do have the same problems. For 2-2-2 you pretty much have to pick one of Rein or Orisa (same for 4-1-1, which quickplay seems to like). I don’t know how the recent support adjustments are shaping out, but if it makes the meta “pick one of Mercy, Moira or Ana for your main healer”, then I actually think that’s a pretty good spot. The current roster is really limiting. Unless they do things like have Roadhog’s self-heal apply a percentage to allies as well (which I’d be all for), I think it’ll be impractical to make all the healers balanced and unique, while still making things like Zen+Brig viable without killing 2-2-2.

Really, I think the game just need more tanks and healers to get a more diverse meta. I’d say:

  • Two more anchor tanks. One of them should probably have sustain (eg, shield health or self-heal), so you can pick them for weak healing comps.
  • One more non-mobile bruiser (like Roadhog and Zarya).
  • One more main single-target healer.
  • One assassin/flanker healer.
  • One utility healer of some kind (CC, zoning, buffs, etc). Probably someone tanky if they don’t add a tank with healing.

One of those could come from the Torb rework (bruiser or utility healer), but the rest… ain’t exactly going to happen soon. Especially if they add more dps heroes along the way. The most pressing needs is another anchor tank, I think.

Even with that, Mercy is probably always going to have the highest pick rate among people who aren’t playing for money, because of aesthetics and ease of use. Provided she’s not grossly underpowered, that is.


#26

Allow me to put some values into perspective, before begining. The time it takes each healer to heal a single 200hp character to full HP from an imaginary 0 with their primary healing tool. I say imaginary because if someone is at 0 hp they are dead. And thus cannot be healed.

  • Ana- 2.25 seconds
  • Brigitte - 12.5 seconds
  • Lucio- 12.5 seconds
  • Mercy- 4 seconds
  • Moira- 2 seconds
  • Zenyatta- 6.6 seconds

Lucio and Brigitte should not take 12.5 seconds just to heal a single squish to full hp. The additional heal gain I propose would only increase the speed of healing up a squish to 10seconds. As for Zen, he would go towards 5 seconds healing at 40hps. This is by no means a huge buff for them. Considering only Zenyatta and Brigitte would also receive the new damage resistance buff. Of which Zenyatta’s is infinate and Brigittes would be on cooldown since it is only applied to her Repair pack duration. For this same reason, characters like Ana who can heal a character to full in under 3 seconds are not receiving the damage resistance additive.


So lets actually talk about this debate this for a bit. Can these comps be played with the changes I proposed? Yes, they can! Would they be the new meta? No they would not. Implying you ran triple Tank. Which is an unorthdox style of play, since it is not 2-2-2, does this mean you cannot run a 2-2-2 comp to beat it? Depends on what you play. I will tell you one thing, having Zenyatta + Ana+ Reaper would be very powerful against this. Reaper has always been a staple response to Triple tank gameplay. With the new versions of Zenyatta + Ana the amount of damage Reaper would be able to put out on a single target would be 50% damage bonus every time Ana used biotic Grenade on him. So long as he shot the discorded target. This would destroy a triple tank meta very easily especially thanks to Zenyatta having a stun ability.

Tanks have slow consistent damage. This loses to high burst damage. Which is exactly what this comp brings. Moira and Lucio can heal for a lot together. But they cannot save the team from a Grav + Deathblossom combo that is doing a bonus 50% damage. This is the same damage that he would be doing if Orisa used her Ult + Deathblossom. Alternatively, you could run anti-dive healers in response. Like Brigitte + Moira or Brigitte + Zenyatta. Since Moira and Lucio cannot apply bonus damage to the team. Zen + Brigittes additional damage resistance & stun utility would easily outweigh Moria’s & Lucio’s powerful healing
if they focus targets. The number of support combinations to kill triple tank would truly be overwhelming. Remember, if they are running triple tank, they have 1 less DPS character! Which means, the team going 2-2-2 would actually be able to heal the slow damage being done THANKS TO THE HEALING BUFFS I GAVE TO THE WEAKER HEALERS!
Triple tank only worked because heals were to low depending on what comp you ran, and even though Tanks do slow damage, it was more than enough to overpower to standard healers! AKA Mercy/Zen. Since I increased Zenyatta’s Healing output and gave Mercy and him damage resistance. They can actually sustain an entire team if they are properly healing the targets who are being focused so they can now stack their Damage resistance giving that single target 25% damage resistance + 90hps This gives a single target so much time! This is more than enough to give Zenyatta’s Discord and the 2 DPS characters time to focus down targets together. And destroy that team!


I would arguable disagree. Ana, is as strong as she needs to be. But, this is dependent on the player behind her. Ana’s Biotic Grenade goes more than far enough. I would advise you to go into the practice range and look at how far she can throw the grenade to hit a distant target. Not only that, but her Grenade still heals for a total of 100hp instantly on impact & with my changes also applies a heal over time totaling to 75hp. Meaning one succesful grenade and every target gets 175Hp total. This is very powerful! And, i feel also necessary since she currently lacks the ability to heal though barriers! She also has a secondary healer with her! She is not alone! Grenade still gives a bonus 50% to all healing sources. Allowing Zen, after the changes I proposed, to heal for 60hps on a single target! This is the strength of pre patch Mercy! Or Brigitte/Lucio heal for 30hps which is current patch Zen heals. You must also remember, that target is also
being healed for 15hps thanks to the changes I gave Ana’s Grenade. The new biotic Grenade is exactly what gives Ana the potential to heal with any secondary healer efficiently! Not to mention the buffs to Nano that are coming soon!


So please allow me to stop you right there, you are compromising! This is not what I am doing. I am suggesting a solution. The game does not need a more divers meta! It needs to put an end to META completely!
With the new era of healing that I propose, it actually opens the door for more unorthodox style’s of play. Right now, you say shields are neccesary, and you are correct! They absolutely are. On average damage blocked is substantially higher than damage healed per game! Because, healers simply heal for too low. After this, heals would become more powerful depending on the combination of healers you use! This allows for tanks to be more aggresive, like Reinhardt and do more than just block majority of the game! And, if you stop and think about it? If Reinhardt is blocking a lot less, then, wouldn’t that mean the NEED for shield has gone down? Yes it would. If that is the case, things like Zarya/D.va or D.va + Hog would be a possibility depending on which healers you used! I do predict though, that Zarya would need to have her Personal shield buffed to compete with other Tanks though. Maybe, increasing the damage absorbed to 300! But decrease how much charge she gains to make it still even out at 40 charge per bubble? Hmm, but that’s another topic completely.


#27

One thing to keep in mind is that percent damage reduction is essentially the same thing as a multiplicative hp bonus. IIRC, they want to limit the existing additive hp stacking mechanics they already have in the game (permanent armor/shield hp buffs), so I can’t imagine they’ll be willing to make multiplicative hp stacking a core mechanic for supports. (Putting aside the issues with damage reduction being properly communicated in the HUD as compared to armor/shield hp.)

That said, no reason we can’t discuss it. :smile:

For 4+ players the healing output shifts in favor of Brigitte, Lucio and Moira. Plus, supports and tanks provide a lot of CC to deal with things like Reaper.

Though, you do make a good point that players could stack the damage bonuses from Ana, Zen and Mercy then to counter tanks… Not sure that’s a good thing either. That’s sort of the main reason why Zen+Mercy has been meta for so long, right? The stacking damage buffs?


#28

From my perspective, I see that the only form of defense applied to health bars in the game is Armor. And, with the exception of Torb & Brig’s no one can simply just give Armor. Not only that, but even then I still believe the Armor is drastically under powered in the long run. Since the damage falloff has a max capacity of 5 damage! However, if you buff armor other tool kits from select DPS would get nerfed! This is not the solution we want!

For the simple fact that the amount of damage Overwatch DPS are capable of doing is drastically high to the point where 1 shots are indeed always readily availible, I do believe that increasing the sustain factor of the game is necessary. In overwatch you have well over 5 ways of increasing damage output. Aka, damage bonus. But only 2 current ways to increase damage resistance! In a game where the ratio of damage to heals is drastically tipped in the direction of damage! We are talking a ratio of 5:1 this is actually insane and is the current reason META is even a thing. Meta comes down to, which composition of characters is best at taking advantage of the current flaws in the games system. The heal to damage ratio is to spread apart.


Lets examine!
In triple tank meta, Tanks, who are designed to do slow consistent damage and an occasional burst damage, are capable of destroying a standard 2-2-2 composition because the 2 healers cannot keep the lone front-line tank alive through that slow consistent damage, even if the tank is properly utilizing their defensive cooldowns. Those healers just CANNOT handle! Why cant they? Because tanks do slow damage, which is harder to dodge in overwatch. Which means, if they are focusing another slow target, damage up-time is very high! 80% of the damage going out is always hitting the target. Ever played against a DPS with 50% accuracy!? Scary! Factor that in from multiple targets, and you have an equation that spells the impending doom of that single front-line tank. Solution? Kill the healers keeping these 3 tanks sustained! This is exactly why Moira replaced Ana in the triple tank meta. Lucio remains a staple to give everyone additional protection on top of their already self sustaining composition. This means killing either of the healers is going to take far too much coordination and something the team opposing the triple tank comp cannot afford, time!


This is exactly why characters who lack the ability to heal multiple targets, Mercy & Zen to be exact, are getting the infinite damage resistance with their heals. They actually do need this. Now, to make sure they do not overshadow other healers and just create a new damage resistance meta. Lucio and Brigitte had their heal values increased to make the comps they normally do good in even better at sustaining so they can remain a staple pick in the era of damage resistance. Also the reason that characters who can heal multiple targets very strongly Lucio, Moira, Ana DO NOT have access to damage resistance! This would put them in a place where they are now superior in every way to the focus target healers. Brigitte was in a very special place, since she does have aoe healing, but she lacks high AOE healing, giving her Damage resistance to pair with her repair pack makes her very versatile. But not overpowered in any one direction. This is also why I nerfed her repair pack from 150Hps to 100hps. But also reduced the cooldown to 4 seconds. Reducing the duration of the buff she gives I believe would also be neccesary. Maybe decrease the armor pack duration to 3 seconds. And, make the cooldown 4seconds? :thinking: Hmmm… This is something that I think would need to be placed on the live server to get a proper feel of whats a good spot.


You say that, but in any scenario where they have a brigitte for CC simply making her the focus is not hard. Remember, the weakness to the multi tank meta is to kill the healers. If the healers have mobility its difficult, aka Lucio & Moira. Brigitte has no mobility and with her shield bash on a 7 second cooldown. That is the least of Reapers concerns. SHE IS HIS TARGET! Simply focusing her shield down would destroy her gameplay, and I give you my word. No healer in this game no matter what buffs they get are healing through Reaper. But, not even Reaper would be a needed pick. ANY shield buster to assist the DPS in killing her would only take a matter of moments. She is a sitting duck without mobility. Phara would also be a very strong pick. With 3 tanks, who is going to shoot her out of the sky?
The only reason these comps seem so strong is because it takes 3 healers in the current state of overwatch, to make a completely solid support selection with no actual flaws. I believe I said it last post.

With the changes I proposed, it makes those flaws less exploitable. And you can have a very solid support healing strategies and combos between just 2 supports to the point where picking 3 can work. But, it is not needed, simply picking another role that is much superior in that field would be much more idea. But, it still leaves the door open for it to be done, and still be viable if you have the skill to compensate.


Most people think that triple support is suppose to have Brigitte, Lucio and Mercy or Zen instead of Lucio to keep a defensive ultimate ability. But, in actuality the strongest support combination would be Brigitte, Lucio & Zenyatta. Rally makes Zen less divable, and repair pack and lucio giving speed boost and boops to anyone trying to dive him are much more of a viable strategy than simply letting someone die, and hope to get Rez off. Preventing the death is always the more favorable outcome. But, because most of this rest on the awareness of Lucio and Brigitte to how safe their vulnerable support is many scrap the idea and just run Mercy instead. Just so they can leave lucio on speed boost. Which is an ok strategy to… But can potentially starve Lucio from gaining ult charge from his healing tool kit. Where Zen Brig & Lucio no one typically gets starved at all. They all heal for a moderate amount and they all get their fair share. Where as Mercy monopolizes the healing part of the gameplay. Which in turn allows Lucio and Brig’s to not have to focus on it. Once again, lazy and non-optimal. However, it is still VERY consistent. One is a very high skill ceiling comp, while also having a very low floor. Where, the Mercy strategy makes the floor a pretty solid spot to be in. The ceiling does not go nearly as high up, but hey. Its also hard to mess up.


In conclusion, my changes have made is so 2-2-2 comps are pretty ideal! Since the skill floor of 2-2-2 comps is relatively high! While other comps like triple tank and things have a much lower skill floor. But, they still have the potential to rival if not surpass a standard 2-2-2 comp. This would legitimately END the cycle of meta currently plaguing Overwatch.


#29

Ah… That’s not what I mean. Overwatch is fast paced enough that, for all practical purposes, 10% damage reduction plays the same as +10% hp. Ie, 10% DR for a 200 hp hero is the same as giving the hero a +20 hp buff. It’s not exactly the same, because of healing and what not, but it’s close enough that adding a new percent-DR rule set isn’t worth the added complexity over just using the existing mechanics of granting a temporary shield/armor bonus. The existing shield/armor buff mechanics also have the advantage of not being multiplicative (so they aren’t more efficient on tanks) and they already have a home in the HUD.

The potential problem I see here is that Brig’s play style requires Repair Pack to have a fairly strong burst heal, even if that means a longer cooldown. She certainly isn’t a high skill hero, but you do have to balance getting full use out of Inspire and Repair Pack. Inspire requires you to be in the thick of the fight beating on people, but Repair Pack requires you to have vision of your teammates who are likely to be out of your field of view if you’re smacking stuff with your flail.

The shorter you make the Repair Pack cooldown, and the more predictive you make it (ie, with DR and shorter duration), then the weaker it’ll be overall because it’ll conflict with getting Inspire to proc.

I think I must have skimmed over this before… You’re not actually referring specifically to the Mercy/Zen meta then, are you? You mean the concept of having a meta? Ie, an commonly accepted set of (supposedly) optimal team comps? If you mean that, well, that won’t go away. Meta’s always exist in any system with this many moving parts. They don’t have to be correct, in a mathematical sense, to exist though…


#30

It is not the same, because on a character that has 250 or greater health the benefits increase. Especially with stacking, from other support heros. You are right in the since that it does provide ‘practically’ the same as increasing heal. But, it duel builds since the healer is also healing you along with it. What this also does is give healers the option too simply opt out of an engagement. For instance, Mercy who see’s her Reinhardt get pinned, if she simply applies healing to her friendly Rein, to give him the bonus damage reduction. She has the flexibility to swap to damage amp to assist in removing the enemy Rein from the battle faster than the enemy healers can react. The practical use is the same as increasing someones heal pool you are correct. But, the legitimate use goes much deeper than that once you factor in that not all abilities do 100damage flat and not all characters have 200hp. The increase or decreases the value of the damage resistance give is directly in the control of the healer. Also, creates a higher healer skill ceiling to the game. Also, damage resistance is already in the game. Im not sure why you continue to speak of it as if it were not. Ana’s Nano boost give 30% damage reduction to the user and while Hog is healing himself he also gains a 50% damage reduction. So, it’s not as if im proposing a brand new mechanic. Just using an existing mechanic to increase healer efficiency.

I do agree with you, that she is mean to have Repair pack to use for those finite instances where she cannot assist the target with Inspire. But, the flaws she has are actually way to apparent and far to exploitable. Armor pack has a 6 second cooldown along with a 30mps travel time which is actually just straight trash. The armor packs usage ends up not being worth it since the target will probably die right before the armor pack reaches the target. Combined with the fact that she still goes on cooldown even if the target dies right before the armor pack connects and it makes the overall usage of the move limitied to those who are already in the fight with her. With the changes I gave her, I increased how much her inspire heals for by a very decent amount. From 16hps to 22hps. This makes her brawl potential extremely strong. Mix this with the fact that i reduced the strength of Repair pack and you have a character that is pretty much in the same spot. But, she trades off having a superior long range healing ability for a strong long range healing ability. While her heals went from being trash to simply low.

What I do not agree with is that the Dev’s continue to overlook her healing tool kit because ‘She’ is very difficult to kill if you do not counter her. She, is suppose to keep the team alive that is her job. Also, if you really want Brigitte dead simply counter her. Phara bullies her into oblivion, Junkrat destroys her for free… Honestly the list of characters that can actually counter her are every dps except hit-scan. An even they have the upper hand if they focus her down from a distance.

I am not sure where you got this conclusion from, but this is just not true :thinking: If it takes you more than 3 seconds to heal a target with repair pack, THE TARGET is out of position. As a healer you never compromise your position for a DPS. They are the high mobile ones, if they want to get healed they know where to get them.

You are correct, I am not referring to an specific meta but the idea behind meta in this game entirely. Meta derives from a select group of characters who synergies so strong to the point that nothing else can compete with it at the highest level. My aim is to create a situation where the characters who are actually the most flawed are the healers. Soldier? Tracer? Widow? For these characters I see no flaws in their tool kits. I only see situations where they cannot preform to their best. Where as supports have legitimate flaws to their tool kits. Think, what is this characters job? What tools do they have to complete that? Example, Zenyatta is a sniper who has no means of doing damage behind the shield. At least soldier has a run. Brigitte? She has no reliable way to heal if she does not have someone to hit. Even then, the heals she provides are astronomically low it will never actually save someone’s life. Essentially the worst thing you should ever have to deal with in this game should be a comfortable healer. Healers should have the tools to easily keep their team alive through basic fire. As in, a dps is not landing headshots and missing abilities! Every healer should be able to heal through this situation. But, currently only 3 can. Ana, Moira, and Mercy. Understand I am referring to their primary healing tool kit. In overwatch it is actually to easy to kill targets though heals. In most games, the healers are the last to die when they should be the first.


Swapping this makes healer play substantially more important. Positioning, awareness, and heal prioritization. These are the defining things in overwatch that matter the most to a healer. But, as you play, you learn that after a while the only thing that matters on a team is who has the better DPS. This is extremely stupid and devalues the other classes drastically. Increase the healers tool kits in the way I propose and this increases the Tank play as a result. Since as previously stated before. The Damage resistance matters much more on characters with larger HP pools. It puts both Tanks and Healers in a better spot.


#31

Oh, sorry, I switched to less precise language for “non-self damage reduction buffs”. Apologies. That’s specifically what I’m talking about with adding a new system. I mentioned Ana earlier as the only hero with such an ability, but it has a very clear visual/auditory indicator. For a general non-self damage reduction buff they’d probably have to add it to the buffs list that shows up in the upper left of the screen, which is more clutter that I doubt they’d be willing to add. (I could be wrong though.)

Why this matters is because support play has some problematic things about it that discourage people from playing the role. Dealing damage has a really obvious payoff. There are bullets, explosions, and the enemy dies when you do your job well. And your team can see your impact directly. For healers, doing your job right means nothing happens. “I didn’t die” isn’t an obvious effect, so unless the game gives proper feedback to the player that is the support’s target, then allies only notice the support when they screw up. Which means a lack of appreciation, toxicity directed at the support if someone dies, and a generally feeling of “why should I bother playing the healer?”

Anyway, health bars moving from healing helps with that, as do buff indicators. So, for a DR buff, they’d really need the buff indicator or else it’d just be “my health decreased 10% slower”, which no one will notice or appreciate.

I’d still argue the DR buff is covered well enough by temporary shield/armor effects. For example, if Mercy provided a 10% hp shield while her healing beam is active, I think that’d be really close to the same thing you are suggesting. I do understand what you’re saying. For example, MOBAs usually have a crap-load of different damage mitigation effects, with varying circumstantial usefulness. I’m just not convinced this game needs more crunch to it.

My reasoning is that you have to be able to see your ally to (a) know they need healing and (b) hit them with Repair Pack. She’s a frontliner, so she’s not going to have consistent vision on her whole team like an Ana, Mercy or Moria player would. A shorter cooldown, but weaker, healing ability would work better on a backline hero, because they don’t have to rotate their field of view every time it comes off cooldown.

I absolutely agree with you that the slow projectile speed is annoying… Not sure why they did that. It’s an odd choice, because Repair Pack has that overhealing effect.

Yeah, we’re not going to agree on the whole metagame thing, but that’s honestly probably a distinction without a difference. It doesn’t really matter whether I think 8 meta comps might be the upper bound instead 20. I still want a more diverse meta and I agree with the overall sentiment of increasing healing strength.


#32

I can agree to this, but im not sure how many other games you have played with healers involved. I come from a RPG background, not a fps background. Most other games healers do typically have all the tools in their tool kit to do their job. People who play the game at a high enough level all know what should 1 shot and what should not. With the addition of damage resistance you will have an increase number of situations where people will now say “Wait, how did I live through that?” This is what people should always think. Therefor, I dont think they would need an indicator. It would also be interesting to see how things play out with damage resistance and shields. 10% added to Rein’s shield since it is apart of him. Would also mean that Orisa could not get the same benifit since her shield is a projectile. This would also increase Rein’s versatility in the game putting him in an even better spot. But thats not even a conversation for this thread :rofl:

The problem with this would be that shield also regenerates. So Mercy would just always give a 10% Hp shield to a single target… But what would happen if Mercy spammed the primary heal on a target? She would instantly give them another 10%? How would you ever kill that target? So now their is a new issue, do you give it a cooldown? How this work with other healers tool kits? If Sombra hacked Mercy, does she still give this shield? The number of issues that would also go into this would be astronomical. Ultimately adding another thing to worry about. When Hog heals himself, everyone knows he has 50% damage bonus. Their is no need to do extra work for no reason. Putting it in the patch notes that Mercy & Zenyatta now apply a permanent 10% and 15% damage reduction is all that need to be said. No HUD adjustments would be neccesary. Because if you are being healed you will ALWAYS have the damage reduction. The game already alerts you if you start to get healed. It doesnt need to do anymore. That’s like say “Healing per second should be visible on screen to get an accurate read of how much someone is being healed” Its over complicating a simplistic issue.

I can agree to this 100% But, its annoying taking things 1 step at a time though. When i see a solution, based on my understanding, that ends the meta cycle. Make every combination of 2 supports a viable healing strategy. This increases the tank pair options because more heals being pumped out means less damage needs to be blocked. Running Ana + Moira with a Zarya + D.va or Winston + Hog or whatever since less shields will simply equal add more heals. Then the other side would be more shields equals less heals. Orisa and Winston to pair with a Zenyatta and Brigitta. Once you have all that tank pairs matched down with 2 healers that compliment them most you are now free to play ANY DPS character that you want. But it starts with more heals. I dont know why the Dev’s took so long to see this. And now they look like they are scared to just flat out buff healing values, they are tip-toeing around a serious issue. Im just scared they are going to take several steps back. But, then again, this game is dying. Maybe just let them kill it and call it a day.


I believe the matchmaking issue is not the real problem with this game, but the issue with Meta. Some players bring different things to the team, iv played with the Sym 1 trick and the Torb 1 trick before the patch. Or the random Sombra main, back when she was a throw pick. An, honestly, I saw what they were trying to do and I did my best to aid them as a support. Sometimes it was enough, other times though; it took too long and the entire push was lost. As a support main I have seen that no matter how good I am at healing, it truly does not matter enough. The speed at which someone can die, and the actual answers you have to it as a support main are extremely limited. It gets to the point you begin to wonder. Was that teammate that died doing the wrong thing? I was able to assist them with 100% of my tool kit, but it was not enough. Because of my rank, or at least what my rank was, I would que into games where I was 1 of a few masters against the enemy team masters players. Except, I mained support, the enemy team had a Master dps main.

In this scenario, I literally cost my team the game because I lack the ability to play a DPS to the same degree that I play support. But, my skill as a support are extremely powerful. Did I deserve to lose? I predicted the DPS mains flank, healed the players who went to go contest him and they still died because bodyshots actually do to much damage in terms of the damage to heal ratio. I can only pocket someone but so much. Not to mention the occasional headshot.

From my perspective, overwatch has blended 3 game dynamics together. FPS RPG and MMO. For some reason, the games design seems to cater more towards FPS too much. Im very good with positioning and heal prioritization and even predicting flanks. So why can someone just ignore my heals and kill my entire team without even worrying about me? I am the reason this dps god got qued up with my team, but because I am not capable of out DPS’ing him. My team will lose. As a healer, i was/am a liability.

The que only looks at your SR when determining an even fight. It does not look at what class you play, either support tank or DPS. The difference between the 3 classes is extreme, to the point where they counteract one another. So why is their importance not weighed the same in a match? In a 1v1 scenario, if the healer starts to pocket someone the only options for the person without a healer should be run or kill the enemy healer unless they land every other headshot and hit bodyshots. In overwatch, from my experience, healers are more often than not the last to die. Which means, from the beginning to the end of that push heals were being properly distributed and it did not matter in the grand scheme of the fight. This makes me sooooooo sad it truly does. Because if you examine that situation on a smaller scale, that means people are actually dying through heals far to often. This is how most other games usually incorporate heals into the equation.

4v1? Absolutely, they should die.
3v1? If they run away maybe they will live?
2v1? If you are on even skill with the 2 fighting you, you should win!
1v1? Even if you have less skill than the guy you are fighting, they dont have heals. YOU GOT THIS!!

But this is not how overwatch is.

What I see when people fight with healers supporting them is.
4v1? You are dead.
3v1? You are still dead.
2v1? You are deader than dead.
1v1? If that guy is better than you YOU ARE STILL DEAD!

Damage is just toooo much in this game, heals cannot compete it also makes their job less impactful overall. The only time support involvement matters is when the people fighting are of even skill. This does not make sense. This also prevents support players from HARD carrying a game. But if you buff raw healing power. Then it makes missing all that more hurtfull to DPS players. Adding damage resistance gives more time, but does not over penalize missing shots by an oppressive healing power. But, again. I still think my cries fall on deaf ears.

Matchmaking is an issue, but I think that is just the 3rd domino in a long stack of issues. Addressing the first domino, which is skill carry capabilities between classes. Fix the problem with skilled supports and Tanks always losing to equally skilled DPS due to class selection and this would greatly improve the quality of the que’s. Decrease the amount of toxicity because everyone can play anything, and reword all teammates fairly. Who cares if they one trick if I can just select another support in my arsenal of supports who pairs really well with whatever they are 1 tricking?

I am so sorry I type so much. I really am.


#33

Hrm. I think you might be misreading this dynamic. Overwatch is an FPS game, first and foremost, so the purpose of healers isn’t really to prevent an ally’s death so much as delay it long enough to win the damage exchange. Which is okay, because death timers are really short. If death timers were 90 seconds, then that’d be another matter… For example, you can heal through damage better in HotS; though, there’s still going to be a damage bias, just so the game can actually progress to a victory. (It’s also not uncommon for supports in MOBAs to lack healing skills entirely, so that fights are more decisive.)

Healers being hard to kill and/or not top priority is actually a good thing for the game, I think. They are often targeted first, but most have tools to escape or survive being a priority target. Which is good, because support really sucks to play in games where you’re both the primary target and easy to kill. Basically just means you spend less time playing the game, spend more time dead, and fewer players are willing to fill the slot as a result. Again, I agree with upping the baseline healing power in the game. But, in fairness, both tanks and healers already provide more value to the team than dps heroes do. As they should, if for no other reason than encouraging people to play them.

I think there are match length balance issues at play here. If healing is stronger, then overtime will stall longer, which probably means they need to fiddle with the payload speed and capture point times to compensate. I really wouldn’t mind longer matches, but… I have no clue what the data is on that. I assume they have a lot of data on how match lengths impact match abandonment, queue times, player retention, etc.


#34

Hmm, this is true. But the current heal to damage ratio is around 1:5 For every 1healh given 5 damage is taken. This is way to high for any game to actually be healthy in terms of match analysis, for the purpose of balancing and reducing meta issues. 1 dps is worth 5 healers? This hardly seems to be anywhere near fair. Average damage done per game is around 86k, it gets a bit tricky with calculating the heal to damage ratio at this point because the 1:5 ratio I got was using the healer with the strongest healing average. Mercy has the highest healing average at 12k which is 1/7 th of the total damage being done. Zenyatta does around 7k on average. Together they make up around 1/5th of the damage being done.


Once again, any combination that does not have Mercy will always have a lower score than this. Since she has the highest heal average. This 1:5 ratio should be the bottom of the barrel in terms of healing. Not the upper ceiling portion.

I do not believe stall will be stronger by anymeans. Remember, my focus is to increase the heal floor of the game. Not the ceiling. Moira and Mercy did not have their healing values touched. Together they create the healing ceiling in overwatch. Thus far no other support combination can heal for as much as these two supports can together. But with the changes I proposed to fix Ana and the 10hps nerf to Mercy’s primary healing I belive Ana will actually replace Mercy in terms of heal power. Which is a good thing.

The heal ceiling of the game is still roughly in the exact same spot. This does not increase stall potential since the hero’s who are best at it; Moira Mercy and Lucio, only 1 of them received healing buffs. But the increase heals Lucio got only affects his teammates. Lucio’s self heal value I left to be the exact same intentionally. Which makes killing him just as annoying as it always has been. But, does increase the need to kill him by a small margin. Because killing through Lucio heals is still going to be easy. Going from 16hps to 20hps is not going to impact a point that heavily.