Suggestion for SR gain/loss

I read this was from the wrong post (9/10 of my recent pings have been from my post). Let me fix that and reread what I missed as this is NOT mine.

Edit: IF it was known it’d be exploited. The relevant factors are all understood well enough for folks to understand climbing in the game well enough to do so consistently.

not really.
It’s why some players want a pure performance system but they seem to forget that stats alone are not worthy of a rank up. They just show one is at least decent for their current rank (I guess) but that doesn’t mean a person is ready to +1 up a tier if they can’t impact games at their current rank enough to win more than they lose.

there is a lot of non-stat stuff that goes into winning games and that’s why the system is winner takes all.

What if I told you that there are 5 other people on the team and their performance contributes more to your win or loss than your performance does.

You’d be wrong. Firstly everyone could say that and diffuse all of the responsibility. Secondly you may never see any of those five again yet you are in 100% of your matches.

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So youre saying that my win/loss potential rests squarely on my shoulders and the other 5 people on my team have no bearing on if I win or lose the match? The other 5 could throw the match, but if we lose its because I performed poorly?

It is a team based game, thats how it was designed. One person (99% of the time), cannot carry a team to victory. You play as a team or you lose.

Yes, yes it does. You’re just looking for excuses but if you cannot win consistently then that is where you belong as you aren’t having a significant impact.

Not true…i have been in several games where i am giving it my all…and we still lose due to not working as a team/throwers/leavers etc. Im not saying that im a pro or anything…but i do know how to play and when to switch. There have been several games that i have been in where i am the only tank/healer and everyone else goes dps…doesnt make sense right…but still happens.
If you dont have a well balanced team a loss is almost guarenteed, reguardless of how well u as an individal play.

I’ve won with 5 DPS, triple off tank, 5v6, etc more than once each. They can be won at times and against far better comps. Beating Rein-Zarya as Dva-Hog is always a funny feeling!

Sr is not about how good your performance is, it’s about how good your performance is compared to everyone else playing the same hero. This makes sense and makes the game more competitive.

Statistically this is impossible on either end. You take a plat level player and put them in a group of bad gold or silvers and you will lose. You take a competent player and put them in a group of competent players and you win. Most people end up with a 50% win rate because they dont want to climb not because they cannot. I’ll follow up on this below, but typically your significant impact is not what leads to victory. Your significant impact means you get the max SR you can and lose the least SR. You still have the flip of the coin if your team will win or lose that match.

FWIW i agree with the assessment that if you are good enough you climb. MMR is a stat that just says your team has a 50% probability of winning. No matter the hero choice, level etc…

For example: the best thing you can do in solo q is to insta lock a DPS and pray that you can make enough of an impact to tip the scale in your favor. The only other side to this coin is that your team has the ability to somewhat coordinate and make a comp to rival the oposing teams. Even then you will typically end up with a 50% win rate.

Yes, it is possible for people to climb. On another post you commented that you are a testament to climbing. Just because you climbed does not mean the system is fundamentally flawed. For instance if you can ONLY play on weekends that person has less of a chance of climbing than someone who plays at peek hours.

Basically the mentality is, if you want to climb turn off comms, insta lock a DPS and work on your own skills. The reason why is you gain more SR this way and loose less SR. This does not mean you are helping your team. It means you are gaming the system.

Im 100% in agreement that skill somewhat equals the place your are at. I also know that silver-plat is not that giant of a skill leap (look at stats for each if you dont believe me). The difference is game sense. This game caters to maps and comps. In silver and even gold no one switches and the majority of people are not on comms. Take any map with 2 CP and the defense will mostly win because some type of bunker comp. Ending up in a draw or battle of the ults.

So sure, anyone can climb. Only lock down 1- 2 characters per season and insta lock those. Dont swap no matter the team comp and pray to make an impact. Because you are good at that one character you force your team to choose and fill around you making this problem even larger because no role q. This guarantees you will climb. It’s still a flawed system.

But I barely touch DPS and climb… and I take the dreaded main tank or main healer role usually depending on what the team needs more. Soooooo?.. maybe you don’t have it all figured out despite thinking that. Do you think GM tanks/supports played DPS til there then magically swapped to tank/support to play at that level? They didn’t!

This is in no way a shot at you so please dont take it that way. You win most of your games on moira. She is easily one of the easiest characters to climb and gain SR with. Below diamond no one even calls out when her fade is on CD. Allowing you to basically live forever, do a good bit of dps to squishies, self heal + heal the team. It’s an easy character to gain more SR than you lose.

Your other characters are 50% win rate and below. So you would either stay stagnant but probably drop based on stats. Take rein for example, your damage vs other reins does not seem as high. This does not mean you didnt do your job, you are probably a great rein. It means the system thinks you should do more damage to not lose SR.

Again, these are in no way shots at you. You are higher than I am so there is that. It’s more that you are the prime example of what im talking about.

I never said I have it all figured out. Im literally just echoing what other people in every single thread have said.

No, but we are not talking about GM level tank / supports. Most people here will never see that, nor does most people aim to get there. OW is your full time job if you get to GM level. So you have to really tune all your skills. If you miss a rein charge your team dies and you fall. This is where skill truly matters. Plat and below skill still barely matters.

I know for a fact that people have 1 tricked their way on mercy and brig to masters. This does not mean they are good at the game, this means they 1 tricked a character and gamed the system. They only climbed because the impact their character makes allows them to climb.

Again, im not disagreeing with you. If you are skilled you will climb. I disagree with the system. OW when it came out was about paper, rock, scissors . You see what the other team is doing and you swap to counter them. Because of SR and the way they calculate it they actually almost force you to main and 1 trick.

This already happens though. Typically, if someone has gold medals they will tell you “Im not swapping I have gold x”. So i feel this would not change that mentality.

I’ve often thought about why Blizz doesnt do this. If you are making a huge impact on your team then you should not lose a ton of SR. I had a game where we had 2 throwers and I was healing. The other team capped both points in about 1-2 minutes. Resulting in a 30 SR loss for me.

The results should be calculated on a match per match basis and everyone on your team should be put in to a pool of how hard they tried. At that point they should calculate sr gain / loss.

The algorithm would not be that hard. You have a baseline of sr. Lets say 5 and you have a scale where the MVP is on top and the weakest link is on bottom. You use the same “on fire” calculation to see how well that person did in comparison to his team mates.

The goal is winning and you can’t track stats for that.
Most losses are the results of stupid yet simple decisions/choices. Stuff like PBSR actually allows players to climb despite being of no use sometimes…
What’s the point of a mechanical skilled player if he can’t use those skills to secure a win?
And winning is the only thing that matters in a match. So nice 360° headshot while you team lost the match.

Push for Role Q and the seperation of groups and solo players.
Less disturbance allows for easier measuring of skill while skill refers to your ability to use your specific skillset in order to win matches despite what team you are playing with.

Groups allow you to climb in more steady environment but those players aren’t necessarily able to compete in more random environment.

_PS: You require a min. of mechanical skill in a match. The amount is determined by the task. _
Awareness however allows for more efficient usage of said skillset.

If this is true, then SR opposes the very fabric of Overwatch. Overwatch is a game of chess. See an enemy Winston tearing up your healers and squishies, switch to Reaper.

If you stick with the Soldier or Symmetra that you’ve had the hot hand with because “SR is how good your performance is compared to everyone else playing the same hero”…then that doesnt make sense in the Overwatch world. The game is about counters. Sym doesnt counter a winston, but a reaper does.

MMR and SR oppose this. Look at profiles on tanks that ONLY solo q. They mostly have 50% win rate. It’s harder for a tank to climb because the system cannot actively calculate a tanks job. For instance take WB, how do you asses his skill? The only metrics you could take is how many piledriver kills he has, how much damage he has done and how much damage his shield has absorbed. From there you could gain metrics on his landmines. The system has no way to quantify how much space the WB makes.

Also lets use the tank again. Lets say the tank is doing their job making space, peeling etc… but the DPS is not doing a great job killing things. There is a chance they will lose more SR than they gain. Their MMR also drops because of the loss, even though they may have done a stellar job as a tank.

I think Kio misspoke. PBSR adjustment is based on how you perform relative to other players on that hero, near your SR. What factors exactly are used isn’t known, but it’s not the same as the medals and is likely the per-10-minutes stats.

If you need to switch, then switch. PBSR is a small adjustment. It includes all of your play, you won’t lose the record of your ‘hot’ hero. Most importantly, PBSR reduces the SR you lose on a loss and increases the SR that you gain on a win… but you still lose SR on a loss and gain SR on a win, no matter how good your PBSR adjustment is.

Winning the match is always better than losing it. Switch when it’s right to switch.

Are you 100% sure about this? I thought this was the case but have noticed something different lately. I was popping off as hanzo and notice one of the heals swapped to DPS without saying anything. I swapped to mercy and while I never got on fire I did a pretty good job healing with her.

We lost the match and I ended up losing 27 SR. Which is almost the max SR you can lose. My hanzo had a card for kill participation and got the POTG. It would seem I would loose less SR and feel if I stayed on hanzo I would have loss less.

No. Nobody’s 100% sure of anything when it comes to PBSR.

But what probably happens is that you get PBSR for all the time in game, so a decent adjustment for Hanzo and a moderate adjustment for Mercy in your case. Don’t forget there’s also an adjustment for your team’s MMR vs. their team’s MMR (and adjustments to that relationship depending on groups, if any), so there’s at least 3 factors there, not just win/loss base and PBSR.

I mean, if you had stayed on Hanzo maybe you would have done better, but remember cards & medals are relative to your team. PBSR is relative to the playerbase at your SR. It’s also a lot harder to excel as a DPS in a team with no healers (not as hard as being a tank with no healers, but y’know) so who knows. You might have been dead a lot with no healers, and that would count strongly against you.

In any case, you’re looking a couple of SR difference, but if you had turned the game around it would’ve been a 50-60 SR difference (ie., +27 SR instead of -27 would’ve been 54 SR difference) so it’s worth the try.

Edit: Oh, and apparently streak bonuses are back too so there’s ANOTHER factor.

Yeah I’d say you’re wrong there as well. Assuming the other 5 players on your team are as good as their Sr and the same holds true for the enemy team they sort of cancel each other out and if you are truly better than your Sr you have the most important rule in the whole match which is to tip the scales in your teams favour for that W. That is the whole premise of the system and why it works extremely well.

On topic though the suggestion for bonus sr would break the whole system unless you also punish players for not getting medals. The system is a closed system and giving our bonus points would just not work.

This is only somewhat true though. MMR / SR does not relate to game sense. A lot of time you get a galaxy of levels because it allows people that are level 25 to play with people that are 3k. Example: a person plays COD and is good at it. Locks soldier and is good at landing kills but has little to no game sense. He is now a carry for the team even though he can land kills. My guess is he will focus on tanks to farm ult then use ult at the wrong time.

If you are truly better than your SR the only way to truly tip the scale in a way that you control is to play a character that can carry. If you dont then you still rely on your team to make plays off you tipping the scale.

Im not saying you are wrong. Im saying the way the system works does not allow people to easily climb without swapping to a character to slog through low ranks. Once you get to plat people still suck but they at least communicate 8/10 times. Low gold / silver / bronze typically NO one talks and it’s just comes down to a battle of ults.