Stop saying/implying that climbing is impossible

Competitive Discussion
21

I don’t normally sincerepost or make a habit of defending Blizzard, but people absolutely belong within 200 or 300 SR of their rank.

If this was a 1v1 game you’d belong right at your rank but obvs there is some wiggle room depending on the teams you get saddled with that day.

I’ve been top 50 in some games and bottom 1000 in others. It all depends on what effort you put into learning, mixed with your natural limits.

Overwatch isn’t important. It isn’t your family, your friends, your job, or the struggle to establish a global dictatorship of the proletariat. If you suck, it isn’t the end of the world.

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22

Alt accounts are a major contributor, this from someone with eight currently. They cannot help but distort the skill curve, and the higher you go the worse the distortion.

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23

Sgtslaughter and Bob. Currently @500 sr difference. To be fair Bob went along the ride of Abdullah team Friday 2100-2300. BUT I have yet another account 2340s I can dig it up if you must.

Currently slaughter dps is at 1800s dps.

Another funny thing. My tank on slaughter 2200 and Bob is at 1800s. My tank on Bob was untouched from the Abdullah team ride.

Support on Bob hangs around 2300, but on slaughter and other accounts… 1700.

Even more info here Losing streak and comparing 2 accounts

All this to say, that why I’m not a believer in this system, it can be better, it should be better.

As for climbing, it’s a mix bag. But as long as the system can be better, practice your skills on your own, voice your concerns on the forums.

Stop hoping for a better system, demand it.
Stop hoping for better teammates, demand a better system.
Stop settling for “good enough”.

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24

So, if we’re looking at whether someone can maintain two different ranks playing the same way, that is 3 different conditions.

  1. You have to be a discernable rank.
  2. You have to play them the same way.
  3. You have to have enough playtime to be “maintaining” a rank.

(1) You and I disagree on what a discernable rank means. But you know that I think a difference of 250 unboosted SR is essentially the same rank and I explain why above. You may not know that I consider it a problem, but it’s obviously not a ranking problem. I won’t try to convince you that such a small difference in SR is basically meaningless, but I will ask: what range do you actually expect to be meaningful, and could you elaborate on why you come to this conclusion?

(2) & (3)

Sgt
Tank: 2219 20 games won
DPS: 1850 98 games won, 9 hours of Soldier, 6 hours of Hanzo, 5 hours of Genji
Support: 1758 (N/A)

Total 255 Games Played 49 hours

Bob
Tank: 1851 3 games won
DPS: 2336 (nee 2100 unboosted) 33 games won, 3 hours of Hanzo, 2 hours of Soldier, 2 hours of Ashe
Support: N/A

72 Games Played 13 hours

Am I reading this right? You have barely played on Bob, and certainly not on the same heroes.

I just don’t look at these profiles and see a similar enough playstyle and time spent to draw any conclusion. Doesn’t mean you’re wrong about being able to maintain two accounts in two ranks, but this doesn’t show anything, one way or the other. You’re not “maintaining” Bob, as in, you’re not playing enough games to change a rank, but not changing rank. The rank is camped.

Did you post this in the intent to show me that two accounts really can be played similarly and maintain different SRs? Because I’m not seeing how this shows that at all.

At best, it shows that two separate accounts played a bit differently by the same person will end up fairly close to one another, even if one doesn’t have many games played.

Which to me screams “working as intended and better than any other option”.

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25

Let’s forget I mentioned 2 accounts at 2300.

But according to your docs 50 games played is all I need right. So weather Bob is a new account or both slaughter was there… but a massive loss streak sent me to 1800s.

I think the point is, two accounts being played in 2300s, one account being there but a loss streak sends me to deep silver (not in 1 day mind you but over a week).

It’s stuff like this people don’t believe in the mode.

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26

50 is for 4v4, so it’s more like 75, but your skill is different on each hero, right? And you barely have any one hero to that number of games. Yet, you’re confused why you have so many different SRs.

But, honestly, I get why people don’t believe in it. They’re told it’s more accurate than it really ever can be, though it’s not clear who tells them this.

It’s accurate enough for what it’s trying to do, but some people expect something different, which is why I asked the question to you: what range do you actually expect to be meaningful, and could you elaborate on why you come to this conclusion?

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27

The system could indeed be better. No system is perfect. But it isn’t anything you should be “demanding”.

Me and you, we aren’t good enough to go pro. Far from it. So who cares what our ranks are. Just play and stop worrying about nonsense you have no control over

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28

This because you’re focusing on SR. MMR is what is tracking your actual skills and is the more accurate rating.

29

Last game 43 elims, 18.5k dmg. 2350. So I guess I’m just smurf’in in Mid-silver on my main?

Last game: E55MY5

As for the “char picks”, you gotta credit map rotation.
oops, won again, 2380.

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30

I’m guessing this is Bob?

Look man, you gotta understand what I’m trying to say. I’m not saying that nothing anyone ever does or no decision ever made could cause the issues people experience.

I’m saying that people falsely blame a neutral, efficient, matchmaking system for issues actually caused by players themselves or game design decisions.

In other words, you can’t say “FIX THE MATCHMAKER” because there’s nothing in the matchmaker to fix.

You probably are smurfing in silver, as it does look like you can play Soldier at mid-gold. Think about what you have to do to prove that it’s THE MATCHMAKER rather than BOB that is causing two different SR values.

First, you have to actually play them the same way. Looks like you’re much better on Soldier and Ashe than Hanzo and Genji, so if you started playing only those characters, then we’d eliminate that confounding factor. You can’t blame a matchmaker if you play two characters at two different levels.

Second, you have to play them at the same time, or close to it. Which, you may, but to really show this you’d need to play a few games on one then a few on the other. If you have a “day” account and a “night” account, though, then you’re gonna get two SRs and you should expect that. You can’t blame the matchmaker for your fatigue or playing in a different pool.

Third, you’d have to treat them equally, which here is where I really doubt you. You’re human, right? You are a human with some ideas about a neutral matchmaking system that leads to frustration with said system and teammates. Do you really play the same way after a loss in silver than you do after a loss in gold? You SURE you don’t tilt a bit more, or punish your bad teammates a bit, or give up quicker? This is really the reason I push back, why I say that the conspiracy actually makes people worse, etc. I simply don’t believe that people play as well when they believe the conspiracy rather than believe that SR will eventually catch up with skill. Do you go into every game thinking “ok, I’ll do my best, maybe get a setback, but I’ll enable my team and if we still lose, carry on”, or are you thinking “worthless matchmaking system gives me useless potatoes and I’ll never advance”. C’mon. You have enough posts that we both know the true answer to this.

I don’t know why people don’t simply blame the true culprit of SR variations. They should have instituted SOME kind of “hero SR” to show you how you do on each hero. But again, game design issue. Just like 6 players per team, problem with ranking, game design issue. Using 5000 discrete levels of SR…game design issue.

The best case that you can make that it’s a matchmaker issue and not a game design or player issue is the implementation of PBSR, but some people want it stronger and some want it weaker (and some want it both, which, umm…) They want this based on their particular theory as to why they’re not climbing like they should.

People want an instant skill-determination. The MM we have is fast, but it’s not Omniscient. Player issue, this is as good a theoretical system as it gets.

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31

So has this been settled yet?

Went back to Slaughter, Lost, 1828: 1GFXTE Widow and solider (48% kill participation) - both tanks alive and C9’ed on defense, not once, but twice.
Bot is sitting at 2399.
Slaughter now at 1800 lost twice while writing this post…

So you got 3 point defense, play the same way, play the same time, treat them equally.

Point 1, Map rotation and what my enemies pick, but its the same 6 toon set. Solider, Ashe, Hanzo, Widow, Reaper and Genji. I do that on purpose too, and I know Genji is my weakest.

Point 2, hours difference. I just switch over, the loss streak continues on Slaughter.

Point 3, Own it… take a look.
1GFXTE
NRMK4A

This is all during the day. Same set of toons. Slaughter’s MMR is all messed up. The matchmaker is broken or has a grave flaw. I really think it has to do on win streaks / loss streaks / after grouping up with people / near season highs / near career highs. Its never “as your grinding”, its always on “special boundary” conditions which is why I always scream foul.

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32

I miss being able to downvote people. So instead, I have to type messages like this in disagreement.

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33

Maybe you don’t realize that I actually expect that some people will be able to maintain different skill tiers. I don’t think you’re actually doing this, for a few reasons.

TL;DR is: It’s not shocking that someone who feels they should be 2300 +/- 50 can’t maintain 1900 because their poor mental state while playing down there with the plebs.

  1. You’re barely outside of the 500 or so SR range that most people seem to agree represents a normal range of movement. The person I responded to was mentioning two whole ranks, not high silver vs low gold.
  2. You clearly have an interest in showing that it can happen, and since it’s easy to tank one’s SR, Sgt’s account is unreliable. I believe that you can rank Sgt. up, if you didn’t get so mad every time things didn’t go well for you. I think you could easily prove yourself wrong, if you wanted to.
  3. You’re discussing single games as if you think a single game means anything, and you’re angry about it, lending credence to point 2 being an inadvertent self-sabotage rather than a purposeful one.

Like, why do you even make comments on individual games? Do you seriously believe the MM makes players C9 on objectives? A Soldier main of 2400 SR should have no issues winning 60% of games at 1800 SR. 60% is not 100%, so what, exactly, is your point?

And again:

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34

Or you could, you know, actually make an argument. I can’t imagine why you thought this was useful.

Hello. Some people allude to it being impossible, others quite literally say climbing is impossible. Whether it’s a 90/10 split or otherwise, I’m addressing both groups. I’m no fan of the matchmaker – that’s no secret, but I also don’t understand why people who are so dedicated to this game are so in their feelings about improving. You’ve expressed that it’s an unfair system, so either stop playing, or put your nose to the grindstone and improve. But many are in this bizarre middle ground where they desperately want to climb while waving their fists in the air about the system – and not climbing. They have not opted to stop playing and they have not opted to grind improvement, so it’s like, “my guy, what exactly is the point here?” You’re supporting a system you apparently can’t stand (so you’ve accepted it), while failing to hold yourself accountable to your own high standards. The truth is, you’re not climbing because of you. And if you think the system REALLY IS that stacked against you, you’re making the incredibly ignorant decision to stick around. All of this suggests that these people should be way more frustrated and pissed off at themselves than at Blizzard.

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35

Try playing 4 V6 with dps that never secure a kill

36

Dude… what about the third state… people who want to climb, study up, aim train but the system won’t let them?

I’m tellin you guys this, slaughter is account is experiencing something bizarre. I have caught it in its tracks. It’s “hard” for me to climb, I won 1, lost 3. I constantly get high elimination participation or high degree of damage done.

Check the replays!

1GFXTE
NRMK4A

The other accountS I just had a win streak 4-1 on bot.

Oh how low can we go… I am actually finding it funny that I drop down to now 1790s…. And you think it’s my mental state? U have absolutely no proof, and you could not be further than the truth.

I’m actually laughing at the plebs (hate to say it) because I have the other accounts. I think for those who didn’t have the accounts in higher elos they would get tilted, that was me maybe 2 years ago but it’s reassuring to have a high anchor.

2399-1790 = 609 is officially a broken state in this wonderful machine. Here is the absolute proof, I provided replays on both accounts and it’s simply refused to believe. Why cause no1 can explain it other than a poor broken system that needs improvement.

(I’ll add, I WAS climbing on slaughter after the first loss streak, got to 2100. Played with Zax and now it’s like I’m being punished, Zax was in bronze at the time and we had a little win streak. ).

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37

I mean, it’s not hard to tank SR. You doing so in an attempt to prove a point doesn’t convince anyone.

The fact that you think that you, I, or anyone else can look at the results from a single game and determine something so drastic as “the matchmaker is working against me” shows your mental state.

Being punished, lol. I’m sure you play the same, riiiiight.

And you still haven’t answered my direct and neutral question.

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38

I’m not tanking on purpose. What happened to the honor system. Someone was looking for someone trying in two different ranks. I provided not 1, but two replays (not looked at), you can count 3 from the junktown thread where I had 60 elims and 23k damage (really tanked that one).

What am I expecting in sr? I have no idea. I don’t want to settle for midway if I’m still climbing on the higher accounts. Slaughter touched 2488 before the big drop. The other newer account I actually got into plat (a better career high than slaughter which is why no big drops are happening). I cant answer the question cause I don’t know where I should be ranked.

I actually proved this dude wrong and his mental state can’t handle it. So the only plausible explanation is now I’m doing it on purpose. Really open minded mentality right there.

39

Then you didn’t understand the question

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40

What? No. That’s not what I asked. It wasn’t about you, even.

What [SR] range do you actually expect to be meaningful, and could you elaborate on why you come to this conclusion?

Perhaps you need some context, it’s been a minute. I’m asking how precise you think the SR system can reasonably be. Would you expect a meaningful skill difference given an SR difference of 1, 10, 100, 1000? There really is no wrong answer, but whatever your answer, how do you come to this belief/conclusion?

That was me, and that wasn’t really what I was looking for.

I was looking for someone maintaining two different ranks, different being defined as sufficiently different in SR that they’re not essentially the same tier. That is, greater than the answer to the question above, which I realize is different for everyone and likely hero dependent.
I mean…really? Simply trying in two different ranks would be easy to replicate and completely meaningless. Gimme a GM account, I’ll try right now!

Replays, any replay, cannot show maintenance of a rank. You had your shot to show maintenance and you showed SRs of high-silver/low gold, which isn’t really that different, and you had two different playstyles on them to boot. Your high-ranked toons have 7 wins on any one character. That’s the amount they’re using to UPDATE a ranking in OW2. It’s obviously not enough to show maintenance.

Plus, you already believe that the MM is against you. You’re not exactly a bastion of neutrality here. Forgive me for not extending my complete faith and trust here. I’m not even saying you’re doing it on purpose, but you believe it will happen, that’s indisputable, so I don’t doubt you’re making it happen. Self-fulfilling prophecy is a thing, you know. There’s a reason good scientific studies are double-blind.

You are simply not showing that you’re maintaining two different tiers. The more games played, the lower the SR. Seems about right for accounts that play a lot of different heroes and have no more than 10, and often 1-2, wins in any of them, where all but one are nearly exactly at average, and the other isn’t too far off.

Though, I do take something back. I didn’t take a great look earlier, it seems Hanzo may be your better character.

Too bad we can’t give Sgt to someone who maintains ~2300 to see if they can get it to 2300. That would be some good data. But a few bad games and some newish accounts? Nope. It’s easier to believe you’re just getting tilted, especially since you come on here all the time and act tilted.

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