So soldier and mcree

General Discussion
1

I see a lot of people complain how awful they are to use and they cant perform very well. personally I think they are fine, they have squeezed practically every buff out them to try and make them powerful but it still isnt working.

lets look at soldier hes way more powerful then he was in his original OP days. With just 20 dmg he was considered oppressive during a time where ana was double healing and outperforming mass rez mercy, hog could hook from a different dimension and intsa kill most heroes and he had to deal with 400 armour 4 second damage matrix dva.

today he has 20 dmg plus better spread and less fall of on his bullets and yet here he is. you cant really do much for him i mean sure he would feel a lot better if he could reload and sprint and have 30 bullets but will it really make him a more viable competitive pick against ashe or hanzo?

onto mcree, they have made every part of his kit oppressive at some point in order to buff him and has had to dial him back. what can you do to him?

i mean yeah it would be neat to roll mid air and have invul whilst doing so but will that actually mitigate his downsides? personally you should rework his kit entirely

if there is a problem with them the source isnt them its their competition and what they have to fight

2

You cant compare heroes based on what used to be good. The game is not the same anymore

1 Like
3

the point is despite buffs to both them at various stages of incredible unbalance in the previous patches neither where considered good unless they were oppressively so, which means the balance porblem isnt them its other characters (and the fact mcree kit is terribly simle).

4

Buff a few heroes or nerf 25 heroes. They are going to go with buff a few

5

yeah much like the community, blizz will opt for the path of least resistance with most effective results wont they.

its the wrong way to go about it because half the cast is already simmering at near op levels anyway and any changes can easily make a mundane character into a oppressive character.

its not even 25 its less than 7 that they actually need to sort out anyway

6

Not really tanks and support are the best already. So first you have to nerf dps down to their level and then nerf all thetl tanks and supports.

And for what?

People say dive, goats and bunker is opressive. It not unquie to when 76 or McCree are good because always complain about the heroes at the top

7

Shields + more shields + healing + armor…+shields.

8

not all dps largely widow and hanzo and a couple of others mostly flankers

a couple of changes can be made but really you just need a character that hurts barriers not through firepower but through theirs kit think sombra disabling them or pharas old conussion a doing a great deal of dmg to them

personbally i think its just the ults from zen lucio and ana providing instant rescue from nealry all sitiation, heck zen and lucios are a practical requirment and you need at least one to save you from a lost team fight.

but they were oppressive for different reason, dive was oppressive because it was a catch all comp and there was next to nothing that could stop a successful dive.

goats was considered oppressive because nothing would due to the incredible versatility and protection capabilities of the tanks and the utility and life saving abilities of the supports

bunker is not even oppressive people are just annoyed that they have to put more effort in than the enemy team to win, its actually quite a counter-able comp if people actually coordinated

soldier and mcree have been singled out when they were too much much like in moth meta despite it being dive still mercy was singled out, or during ironclad meta bastion was singled out as oppressive.

9

This is pretty much the entire argument around Soldier/McCree.

Nobody is arguing that they haven’t had the absolute bajeezus buffed out of them, but it obviously hasn’t worked.

The two most common lines of thinking is that it hasn’t worked because burst heroes are so strong, with Snipers outclassing them at mid/long range and flankers outclassing them in short ranges.

The other line of thinking is that the reason burst heroes are so dominant is because healers are so powerful, since the best counter to high throughput healing is burst, specifically OHK’s, leaving sustained DPS to suffer.

10

You want every to be nefed down to the level of mccree and 76 right. Which means first those dps like hanzo and widow need nerfed

Cause tracer, widow, hanzo, genji and doomfist dont get singled out.

Rule of thumb on these forums is if a dps can kill something it is opressive

11

When I want to stomp on enemies using my smurf acc, I pick soldier though.

Lot people say ‘YOUR SOLDIER IS HACKING!!’

12

Right so the obvious answer is to buff sustain dps which is what they are doing. Not nerf everything else

13

exactly though I still dont get where healing is too strong is coming from, discounting new hero releases, healing has actually been toned downed as much as it has been buffed since the mercy rework.

mercy got 50hps but then gained back 60hps on er ult because it was underwhelming

ana gained 300 hp burst heal on nano then lost some of it

Lucio gain 4 meters on his circles to allow him to heal easier

brig got lucio passive levels of healing on her kit but it came at the cost of most of her damage combo and its not the easy thing to start up.

if healings doing to much that means current popular support characters have always had their healing way too high but that cant be right becuase in gm ana, lucio zen are picked and theyre regarded as the most balanced character in the game (or are they? (cue vsauceintro))

14

Because you couldnt stack 3 AoE healers before. Their was not burst healing before.

Cause ana, brig didnt exists yet.

15

It’s mostly the fact that he’s just purely outclassed. Only things he’s good for is that sustained damage for cutting down shields and removing Baptiste immortality lamp, no point in running him due to the fact that any burst damage DPS are much more efficient at getting picks.

16

Soldier and McCree are fine against squishy targets. Tanks have changed a lot since launch, though, and that’s the reason they both have problems in team situations.

Hog used to be much more vulnerable. He took full damage while healing and couldn’t move while healing. Soldier and McCree could absolutely wipe the floor with old Roadhog if they avoided the hook or waited for Hog to burn it on someone else.

Dva had more armor, but she also had a lower total health pool. Her 400 armor + 100 health was worse for Soldier than McCree due to the difference in weapon damage. In fact, McCree did more damage to old Dva as a percentage of her health pool than he does now. Dva also now has micro missiles, which allows her to deal more burst damage and overpower healers’ attempts to save McCree or Soldier’s healing field.

Winston’s dome shield cooldown was altered. The cooldown used to begin when the dome shield disappeared or was destroyed, but after the release of Orisa the dome shield was modified to match Orisa’s shield behavior. The cooldown now starts when Winston places the shield, rather than when the shield is destroyed. That has effectively reduced the cooldown on the shield, which means Winston can more frequently push one button to utterly deny Soldier and McCree’s value to a team.

Orisa was introduced to the game. While Orisa’s stationary shield is just cannon fodder for Bastion and easily danced around by Tracer and Genji, mid-range hitscan can’t really do much about it. They can’t close the gap without high ground advantage because they will be vulnerable. They can’t punch through the shield without help because it’s just too strong compared to their weapons.

Wrecking Ball was added to the game. He can’t be critically hit while rolling and can easily stack up 1000+ combined health, armor and shields. McCree can interrupt his rolling rampage with flashbang, but both Soldier and McCree are incredibly vulnerable to the ball’s slam attack. The hamster can make shorter work of them than Dva can in most situations, and he’s even harder to kill.

Even Zarya has received buffs against mid-range hitscan since launch, given how they tweaked her bubble energy and energy decay. It’s much harder now to get Zarya’s charge to decay. All she needs is a few points of energy here and there to keep going at high charge for a long time, and so the advantage that faster-firing lower-damage weapons had in avoiding dealing too much damage to her bubbles is effectively gone.

The only tank that hasn’t received any buffs that explicitly impact low-mobility mid-range hitscan heroes is Reinhardt. Looking back, it should come as no surprise that Soldier and McCree aren’t doing as well as other heroes who can avoid the tanks and hit the squishies instead.

17

Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion considering they’ve buffed Soldier to literally the strongest he’s ever been, far stronger than S3, and he still isn’t used.

Actual direct healing is pretty much unchanged. Though slightly higher with buffs to Ana’s efficiency and Nano, as well as the implementation of Moira. But not a huge amount.

What has changed is the amount of AoE healing you can stack. It made sense why GOATS were used to counter burst DPS and why countering burst DPS hurt sustained even more, but now we’re shifting towards Bunker, an overall less healing relevant meta and sustained DPS still aren’t seeing play.

So personally I don’t see raw healing throughput as a huge detriment to sustained DPS, at least not in the current state of the game. I think the strength and safety of burst DPS does far more to limit the DPS meta than anything else.

After all, why bother playing most heroes when Widow is safer and more effective?