Most likely yes, but the point of the thread really is that when nerfing it, they should target the most problematic aspects of the ability, wich is the rate of fire and CD reduction that breaks alot of interactions and makes it particularly strong when paired with specific characters too much and weirdly,
Say a character like Winston gets so good on it because he can bubble 3x on its duration but characters that dont have this weird cooldown rotation and strong cooldowns in general dont get the benefit as much.
I just didnt have time to get to how to compesate her yet if they did nerf it like this at post creation, now i think making her move 10% faster (as quick as Gengu/Tracer) and better Ofuda/Kunai proj speeds would be a decent compesation i think.
Yes, it feels overturned. I’m not a game designer or balancer but I also don’t think all of it is needed, especially the ult cost. I like frequent counterable ults.
Uh, no.
Moira is a jack of all trades, master of none, much like Mercy was at release. That doesn’t make her abilities worse than a specialist.
If that were the case, we’d have gone to TriTank again. Instead we just went to 2-2-2 with Zarya first, then D.Va.
That’s just Zarya, let’s not make a generalisation here.
Wrong. Tanks dealt less damage than most DPS and that’s a documented fact. They sat between most DPS and supports in terms of damage/game, with only the more bursty DPS (Widow, Doom and Tracer) below them.
That alone doesnt maker her abilities worse, the fact they are weaker in comparison, even by considering consistency, does.
That was on ladder, where people cared about playing DPS for fun, on tryhard games people played 3 tanks, specially after GOATS and its variations was invented.
(To be completely transparent, i dont completely remember the meta at the time, i did play it thouh, and with some intuition and hindsight i get to that.)
Currently, Winston, Zarya, D.va and Sigma are overtuned/powered, bk then, when it wasnt OQ tanks were just better DPS in general, yes.
That aint a documented fact at all, on double shield,a good Orisa and Sigma outdmgd a good DPS that wasnt just doing a billion trash dmg like Bastion/Junk, same for Wins/D.va on their maps and Rush on theirs, lets not even commentate on Hog cuz hes just a dps character and Ball, sure, but even with his less dmg focused kit he still could output alot of dmg.
the thing about kitsune rush is that its a very kitable ult. most elos will not kite it though and therefore ppl think its more op than it actually is. how you counter it? as soon as you hear kiriko calling out her ult, just press s beyond its range and chill (similiar to window) the enemy either needs to overextend losing the buff or stay there and hope for someone stupidly peeking.
the ult needs some time to build up to full range and her callout is very long. so just resist the urge to stay in and you are fine. ofc the best kirikos wait for a scenario where you cannot longer kite it and once again similiar to window you just have to play faster than the enemy team. chances are not everyone on their team is using the ult at the same time or try to greedily get in its range. thats where you can punish.
Both of those are weapons though. Storm arrows just alters how the bow operates and the sword is a different primary. Pretty much if it replaces your primary and is a separate weapon it usually buffs it.
Yep but its just much better than Window most of the times, much more applicable on better, more efficient AOE that , dont forget, also increases ur movement speed so kiting it when timed well is basically losing and an ultimate that you cant
Shield it (Beat, Trans, Rally)
Stun it (Nano, Beat, Coal)
Easily Counter it (Ana nade/Burst dmg vs Trans, high DPS vs Beat)
Easily kite it/take cover (Window, Trans, Nano at times, Beat at times)
You cant even EMP the darn thing but thats pretty specific, its just off the charts broken imo, it also lasts moer than Window too with snow-balling effects if u kite it/cant end the fight immediately, so strong, by far the strongest.
Yes they are,
Moira right click = 50 DPS, 24 HPS, healing is often irrelevant when your opponent can hit their shots or have high dmg in general, 20 m max range.
Kiriko kunais = ~220 DPS on headshots , ~72 on bodyshots, unlimited range, but projectile.
Moira healing : 70 HP/S, less range but on an aoe, consumes resources.
Kiriko healing: 78HP/S, more range, single target, no resource management.
Suzu vs Orb we already discussed.
Fade vs Swift step, Swift Step is debatebly better on good teams, with more range and faster.
Kitsune Rush : best ultimate in the game, pretty much.
Coalescence: Likely tied with Valkyrie as the 3rd worse support ultimate, with many counters to it, like stuns, anti healing, alot of dmg… etc, only beating Rally wich is well, outdated.
So its Kiriko 5 vs 0 Moira pretty much, if u have the skills for it.
To a degree, again, i bat that to early OW shenanigans, and even IF it was an dps driven meta (cuz Soldier was busted if i’m not mistaken) its just 1 more outa alot of the rest.
D.va is a close second with Sigma and Winston following right behind, when D.va and Zarya got nerfed, Winston has a 100% pickrate on OWL, rightfully so.
Yes they are, Overbuff’s numbers are unreliable as all hecc with hidden profiles and not even working on OW2 if i’m not mistaken so…
And thats just “medal worthy” dmg meaning trash dmg even if they do, cuz thats how that stat tracking works, Tanks got the most impactful dmg at the very least with comparable trash dmg.
So it would seem yes, but even things that are channeled like Mercy’s beam get buffed appearently so i wonder how Blossom’s dmg really works, gotta get to the bottom of that.
Moira’s damage hardly misses, Kiriko however will on average (for a high skill player) land maybe 35% of her shots, and ~15% of headshots. Those are the stats of some of the highest level Zen players (Top 5%) at least.
Moira’s is not only AoE, but has a lingering 70 heal over 2s after she stops using her resource.
A teammate-dependant ability can only be worse than a regular ability, unless it is better on every single level.
Swift Step has more range, but also a longer cooldown. It also has a cast time.
I can mention half a dozen ults that are way better in terms of value and ease of getting said value.
TacVisor, Overclock, B.O.B., Dragonblade, Graviton Surge, Coalescence.
Thing is, Coalescence value isn’t only in its support ability. It’s also a great damage tool.
70 unblockable, AoE DPS is nothing to scoff at. As for stuns, they barely exist, and Coal has the perk of making Moira harder to hit.
While as a support ult, it’s not great, as a DPS ult, it’s excellent. Ironic.
Have you ever seen Dive without Tracer ?
No, Dive was driven in big part by her. And that’s one of the longest metas, spanning over 2 years.
D.Va is non-existent in Asia leaderboard, so no, not even close. Winston is a clear second, followed by Sigma.
Which matches exactly what Blizzard told us. Too bad they can’t even follow their own stats.
We’re talking OW1 numbers, so that last part is a moot point.
Again their numbers pretty much always matched what Blizzard revealed. Besides, it’s the only source we have really.
Of course we could argue forever on pure hunch, and we’d look like a pair of fools.
Yeah, even using that logic, wich i think is faulty to an extent, those shots she hits if skilled enough makes much more of a difference than doing 50 DPS consistently.
Countered by the fact she has a resource and AOE healing isnt as good in OW2, is why they buffed Bap alot.
It cant “only be worse”, when your team is good, it starts looking better.
(Those 2 abilities though are very close in power imo, only difference is that, one is better with a non-coordinated team and vice-versa)
It tries to do both jobs, like her design in general, failing to get much good value, its not a bad ultimate might i add, as you put there it beats alot of DPS ultimates, its better than Visor at least but when compared to her support peers…specially Kitsune and Beat… not so much.
Yes, i have, Wins/Dva with Soldier/Genji or Genji/Flex or Soldier/Flex or many other weird dive comps though Tracer was the best DPS in slot for any comp so… was rarer to see those, have u seen dive without Wins/Dva/Ball?
I’d have to take a good looksies at that, either way shes second at least on NA/EU making her overral second still, likely.
So all of those 4 needs nerfs btw.
The point is that Overbuff stinks, still better than nothing though.
Big true right there, we can only argue thru experience, its not pretty close to a fool’s errand… at least we understand eachother’s perspectives better, maybe.
I think her kit also fits the new environment pretty well with insane survivabiity, shes like almost impossible to Stick as an Tracer as an example, she also has good healing, good dmg and utility idk… seems gud to me.
But yes a small compesation to her base kit prolly would be needed to keep her afloat, like 10% mv speed and better proj speed on her healing/kunais.
The tickrate of beam type weapons is increased and the staff counts because it has a tickrate as a “weapon”. Blossom is just an ability that creates a radiating damaging AOE.
I don’t have someone to test it with but it’s pretty straight forward. Weapons with an attack rate attack 50% faster. Weapons with a tickrate tick faster. Only things that are a weapon get this bonus. Dragon blade is a weapon, storm arrows is just a modifier on his bow, deathblossom is just an ability. In general if you left click to shoot something like a weapon, it’s probably a weapon.
I don’t think it’s OP, I think it is just incredibly strong in the format of a pro league where they have coordinated teams that practice together and get coached together. In a ladder situation where you are playing with people you don’t know, even in high level play, it’s strong but not OP. Coordination like that makes it look much stronger than it plays. That is why balancing around pros solely is a dumb thing to do. It should be taken into account, but there are factors that need to be considered.
Lemme ask you this, are Support ultimates better or worse with coordination in general?
Better.
Does that limit their capabilities of being overtuned?
No.
Kitsune Rush is by far the best Support ultimate in the game, making it the best ultimate in the game, if that is not grounds for nerfing idk what is.
You do not require high lvls of coordination to make it good, you just need comptent teammates that have ears or can read the subtitles or see its animation really.
And Top-down balancing is the best type of balancing but i agree that balancing around the Pros is wrong, balancing around GMs (and not solely, focused on them) is the correct call for a Solo Q main game.
Well I mean there is a difference between pro coordination where it’s heavily practiced and coached vs high level ladder coordination where people still have to predict how their team mates will behave. I agree though, top down balancing with GMs with consideration of lower ranks (like is this ganna break gold even if better for GM) is the best way.