Role-Queue is the perfect concept of "Works on paper, but not in practice"

General Discussion
125

I have taken courses in stats, my job involves a lot of stats, and yes, I realize it is non intuitive if someone does know how stats work.

but lets see if we can teach you a thing.

https://www.checkmarket.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/estimate_population_survey_sample.gif

This is a chart of population size, margin of error, and confidence interval

A brief look the chart, will show you that to retain the same margin of error, and confidence for say…
5% Margin of error, with a 95% confidence
For 100,000 people, you need 383
For 1,000,000 people, you need 384

Now, I realize THAT is not intuitive, you notice what DOES change the amount of people needed a lot? The Margin of error.

You can adjust the formula, so that GIVEN the responses, you can work out the chances it breaks the 50% threshhold (since you are checking to see if it is within the error range, and if people are very much on one side, it requires less sample)

In our case, it was WAY more than enough. Especially since we had samples from difference sample sets, which agreed with each other.

It help put it in perspective, we do stuff with particle accelerators. Now the number of particles which collide IN those accelerators are incredibly tiny compared to the number of particles say… your breakfast, let alone the planet, or solarsystem… etc.

But we can still make some strong claims on the results. How? Well, because that formula is eventually stabilized on a number for sample size and error for any given population.

Now that should cook your noodle a bit. What is even weirder, the number is still REALLY low.

When you are show if you break the 50% threshold, when the answers push that hard on one side, dozens is all you need.

People did leave the game, but, the results from the polls didn’t move, which shows that people left the game in roughly the same ratios as people who loved it as people who hated it. (or people moved from one category to another, in large numbers, but, you would have to show that, and that would be hard for you)

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126

I stated that this was an example.

I have stated other examples at other times, as have many others

not at all

a judgement call made by a person on the quality of something is always an opinion

many others aside from myself have mentioned and described one or more of the many severe problems 222 added to the game in many 222-related threads across these forums and on other online discussion platforms

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Despite the fact that the additional pieces of evidence I was talking about aren’t actually surveys, but official developer statements, I’m also pretty puzzled that a person as clearly knowledgeable as you believes in the factual lie that surveys/polls are only valid when more than 75% or so of a game’s player base participate in them.

And that’s factually wrong because, plainly and simply, it’s extremely unlikely such an endeavor would even be possible when talking about a large - scale game like Overwatch and especially when a crowd of a couple of tens of thousands of randomly - selected users are moooore than enough to conclude to valid metric data, according to the basis of statistics that is. The same is also true about all other such large - scale games as it has been proven in the past as well.

I never made such a claim. Of course there will be overlapping users no matter how an online survey gets distributed, so please stop putting words into my mouth.

From what I’ve seen so far I believe that Reddit is as reliable as community - collected data can get.

Of course I need to do more research (tomorrow probably) on the demographics of role and rank distribution and if they’re close enough to the demographics of the game itself, then from that point and on it will be very hard for me to consider surveys concerning this subject with at least a couple of thousands of replies as invalid.

Dunno if you’re serious or not here but claiming that “the majority of games in general pre - 2/2/2 role - lock were of a 4/5/6 DPS format” and “in my experience, the majority of games pre - 2/2/2 role - lock were of a 4/5/6 DPS format” are totally different claims that are in no way mutually exclusive to each other.

I’ve already answered this point and I’m going to remind you how the same exact train of logic can be applied to the opposing stance from the one we’ve been talking about this far as well.

Agreed 100%! The same exact thing is once again true about the exact opposite claims as well!

You can believe whatever you want. If you believe the evidence that exists this far concerning this subject is invalid, then I couldn’t care less as long as you provide the necessary argumentation. If you actually have evidence as well that supports an opposite conclusion, the please list said points here so that we can apply the same logic to them as well.

Dunno what’s up with all these pseudo - aggressive one - liners, but to say that they damage the multiple valid points that you’re making in your posts as well would be an understatement… :frowning:

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128

And they are all wrong.

Sure, but this is not a judgement call, it’s a fact.

Just because someone says something doesn’t make it true, and in this case it isn’t.

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They’re not, at least for the biggest one I could find:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeg1vGx756M0XwpzUFhfSUZqBA3y-2Khm7xe7o7vqLtRz9bbg/viewanalytics

Scroll to: “What Role(s) Do You Usually Queue For?”

Damage has the lowest count. Support most, followed by tank.

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130

Again, thats now how it works dude.
You cant use that formula on skewed non objective surveys, conducted by who knows what site, in a specific echo chamber community.

Not really. Because seeing those polls, some were close to 60/40 and some others were like 78/22 so … which one do we believe? Let me guess … the latter right? Because it suits your point?

Got it. No Bias at all guys, super OBJECTIVE surveys with fair samples of the playerbase, including those who LEFT the game because of forced 222 and would never do those surveys.

Seriously dude, we are 100% done.

Nope. No developer statements mate.
The only statement thrown was that the majority of the games (all modes) were played with 1 tank. That includes Triple DPS and leaves 4-5 DPS as a very very very very RARE ocurrence (probably situational and not for an entire match).

Go ahead and post that statement.

The OW playerbase is quite different. Some people never play comp, some others ONLY play comp … doing a survey on a forum or even in reddit where only the like minded agree and post its very very very pointless. You should know that by now but hey, everybody wants to believe what they want to believe I guess.

My problem comes when they want to DENY other’s opinions based on air :slight_smile:

You did and its literally quoted on my post.
I mean you cant deny it mate, your sentence was:
Dozens of surveys containing hundreads of responses from different people.
Nothing more needed. Evidence is clear :man_shrugging:

Again, everyone believes what they want to believe. Theres people believing the earth is flat so … null point.

Again, you are playing semantics, my claim was simple and you never refuted it. Thats how burden of proof works.
“My” Equals “In MY experience”.

Also if many people have that experience, permutations and stats tells us that then the other 11 players in that match had to have, forcefully, unequivocally, the same experience … unless the player making that claim is delusional and we are back to square one (no proof for either side).

Congratulations on agreeing with me then. No proof provided, so either both are false or both are somewhat true. Which proves nothing.

I dont have evidence against it but then again, I dont need it because the burden of proof is not on me.
My claim is, for the hundred gazillion time, there is no evidence that the vast majority of players like OR hate RQ.

One thing is feeling pain and the other the perception/fear of pain.
The way I say things dont invalidate the meaning, logic or how solid my stance is … unless you are trying to make an argument from Ad Hominem and claim my posts are not good enough because I am “acting tough” or whatever but then again … that would be a fallacy.

Theres no aggro here.
“Bingo we are done here” and a wave means that you cant refute my claims and no proof of the claims of majority have been provided so, if nothing of substance follows up, no more replies are needed.

You can stop @ me.

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131

“when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.” - Asimov

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132

Widowmaker is also the perfect concept of works on paper but not in practice.

133

You can’t compensate for their choices, considering the other team can just play Goats and run over you.

Also, I used to fill a lot before role queue was added and I must say it was awful. Solo tanking is bad, solo healing is terrible and you just can’t do enough to make up for that.

I’m never going back to Open Queue.

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134

How to fix open queue: Play tank…

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Actually, yes you can’t. Have a bad tank player that refuses to switch? Go tank and try to make up the difference. Have a Junkrat and a Reaper vs. a Pharamercy? Go hitscan to help out. These things are of course impossible to do in Role Q so you are hopeless.

That ain’t flexing m8.

I know several people, including myself, that disagree.

Cool, I don’t really care what mode you play but as long as you enjoy it, good on ya.

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136

That was quick.

Counter picking isn’t as important nowadays than just running a good all around comp. There’s a reason we have so many mirror comps in high levels. If you have a bad tank player that refuses to switch and you pick another tank to pick up the slack, he’s probably going to switch to DPS. Besides, you’d be thankful just to have a tank player in open queue.

So what exactly is flexing?

You disagree, but don’t elaborate on it. Ok.

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No, because if you can counter a team comp or a player that is doing exeptinally well, your chances of winning go up.

No, because why would they switch then if they didn’t before?

Also, I don’t really give a damn. if they’re better at DPS than tank and switch to DPS, I see that as a win.

Switching to a hero that best fits the scenario to increase the chances of winning.

I don’t see the need to elaborate anymore…

People, including me, disagree with the sentiment that solo tanking/healing is bad.

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138

You can counter a certain player who is doing well, that’s true, but you can’t counter an entire comp with a single swap; you’ll still need to rely on your teammates and hope they switch as well.

Fair point. But more often than not you switching won’t make enough of a difference, they’re still deadweight and it’s really hard to 5v6 in this game.

That’s something you can still do in role queue.

I guess you can choose to ignore the statistics and say solo healing/ tanking wins more often than not. That’s up to you.

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No, it’s just I’ve always had a bad personal experience with queues and they just got worse.

Doesn’t look like it did though, at least from my perspective.

140

More than half the game’s roster fills 2 out of 6 slots.

This definitely did not work on paper.

141

Funny thing about 5 dps comps…they win more then they don’t. I don’t see them very often but I don’t mind as long as it’s working.

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142

Wow, ok, thanks for that!

I’ll do a bit more research because the difference between the consensus towards 2/2/2 role - lock is pretty staggering according to this survey, along with these mount of responses, but yeah I guess due to the weird distribution of roles the validity of this poll is pretty debatable, even though the rank placement of the participants seems really close to that of the actual player base’s.

Just some of the most major ones:

  1. In a Developer Update a few months ago Jeff Kaplan himself said that 2/2/2 role - queue was overall a “positive” change.
  2. Here are some official developer quotes that were released a couple of months ago:

You interpreted it wrongly then. What I meant is that, between the different surveys, there will naturally be users that have participated in some and not in others and vice versa.

That’s a… Pretty bad and irrational attitude when none of us has even done the appropriate research yet to determine the status of Reddit as a valid source…

Nope, that’s just wrong. Different people have different experiences and the fact that (anecdotally) many of them share the same experience doesn’t necessarily mean in any way that the majority does as well.

No statistics needed here, just pure logic.

Nope. There can only be one truth at the end of the day. We supposedly already know that truth based on official statements from the devs, but since the validity of said statements is kind of debatable according to the subjective crisis of each and every one of us, then that’s exactly why this conversation has been approached this way.

Because if that wasn’t the case, then plainly and simply this wouldn’t even be an argument in the first place.

The burden of proof is not on you as an individual, but other users have made such bold claims in the past without providing literally any evidence and that’s what matters at the end of the day if we look at this entire situation with a general lense.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong.

That’s literally the only problem here. Just the fact that you subjectively consider any of the multiple pieces of evidence that exist as invalid does not in any way mean that they do not exist altogether. (Unless of course you’re following the logic that “having evidence that I personally consider as invalid is the same thing as having no evidence at all”, in which case you should probably re - write that quote).

This is literally the only sign of bias in this entire conversation this far and the only one that I’ve been arguing against. If you haven’t understood yet, I couldn’t care less whether you personally think said pieces of evidence are invalid as long as you explain yourself, but saying that they don’t exist at all is just a terrible way to have a conversation and actually act like a speaker, that’s all.

Once again jumping from one baseless conclusion to another I see… Also yeah dunno if “Ad Hominem” would apply if I proceeded to make the exact same argument that I’ve been making so far, but then proceeded to fill all space in - between with insults and trolling - one liners… Best case scenario I would be suspended for a few days, so I guess your “Ad Hominem” doesn’t really work here.

Also I can’t help but chuckle at the irony of the last sentence of the above quote after all the replies you’ve written, but anyways… I digress…

143

I dont know what Kind of mental gymnastics you have to do in order to actually believe that ANY of those statements mean:
“The vast majority of players think RQ/Forced222 is better” or anything in that ball park.

Again, it just doesnt fly.
Thanks for posting something with substance but unfortunately, “generally positive feedback” and a few concerns is a generalization and an often used euphemism for things like 60/40 … and that is not a “vast majority” under any measure at all.

Vast majority = 75%+
Otherwise is just majority and the closer it is to 50% is just a “slight” majority, thats how semantics and meaning work. You cant just juggle it.

Again, words have meaning. If you dont use them properly, its not on me.
The moment those crowds overlap or some players have posted in a few of those surveys, they STOP being different people. Im astonished I have to do this but:
Different people = Unique voters.

The moment even ONE player voted in several surveys, you cant use that word. Your mistake, not mine.

Not only it isnt bad, but it is the most accurate depiction of reality mate. Take into account that we are talking about PRECISION and % of votes/population. So you taking reddit as a valid source (which you claim you did) is not an objective choice, but a biased one.

Again, thats just a fact. Like you said, the validity of reddit hasnt been proved, therefore you are choosing to believe what you want, hence my response.

Nothing but FACTS and pure analysis here. No “moral judgements” , or more smoke etc.

“Pure logic”? Nope. Not at all.
Lets go by facts:

  • Several players claim their matches were 4-5 DPS = A
  • Numbers of player in a match = 12
  • If a player claims Z match falls under A category, number of players sharing the same experience = 12.

Theres no other choice. You can claim that some like it, some dont, some think its bad, etc, but the math is clear. If you take A as True then what I said is a 100% true statement.

(spoiler alert: Its not true, hence the current situation)

And nobody here knows it because again, there has been no survey conducted to ALL players or something that clearly proves the statement that most people like RQ or they think 222 was for the better etc.

You can keep running around throwing smoke but thats the ultimate truth. Just because said data doesnt exist, you are just “guessing” and reaching through statements and random polls from sites. Whatever floats your boat mate but some others with a keen taste for precision, will never accept that (and rightfully so).

And you have to be OK with that :man_shrugging:

Then you are replying to the wrong dude so more smoke.
You could have saved time.

Doesnt become true Ad nauseam, which is, again a FALLACY.

Theres no bias here, my stance is LITERALLY the only OBJECTIVE one.
Your stance is:

  • We dont have the full story, so we are going to have to “make up” the rest based on smoke and some “clues” thrown out there.

Like I said, I get some people hate living with uncertainty (religion exists for a reason), but you are going to have to accept that some others, like me, with HIGHER STANDARDS for precision, will NEVER make claims with such feeble “evidence” (if we can call it that).

No irony, no nothing, dont make up smoke. I am tired of smoke, thanks.
Next time you try to bring something like those Developer’s comments, I will only address that, because the rest is pointless, honestly. You are not changing opinions or admitting anything and neither will I.

:wave: :wave:

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144

I agree 1000% with this and your wording, as plainly and simply, I’ve never in my entire life made a point of a “vast majority” of the player base liking 2/2/2 role - lock, so I’m glad we cleared that one up.

That’s fair, my mistake then.

Please stop making up stuff, reaching random conclusions afterwards and calling them as ““facts””.

I specifically wrote in my previous posts that I had not verified the validity of Reddit yet and that I was going to do so before I reached a conclusion.

I said that and you immediately went on to assume all that nonsense, along with Reddit’s supposed invalidity without doing any research yourself.

Once again, I’m sorry but you’re outright wrong here lmao.

I’m going to repeat my original statement. If you still cannot comprehend it, then just ignore it… I’m not going to bother too much…

I’m sorry but the fact that you think that all players need to be asked in order to reach a valid conclusion about anything concerning statistics for a game with supposedly 40 million players is just ignorant to a frightening degree.

Surveying the entirety of a game’s player base is simply impossible, no large - scale game has never done it in the past and has still been able to conclude to outright valid results by approaching a certain percentage of randomly - selected users with unbiased questions.

Wrong. I’m searching for evidence to prove my actual claims and then I’m giving everyone that I talk to the agency to decide for themselves if the pieces I’ve found are valid or invalid and if so, I want to hear their reasoning as well.

If only the many people that believe the majority of the player base actually dislikes 2/2/2 role - lock did the same thing for once…

Great, so you want official data to be presented in order to make your mind. That’s a totally respectable point that supports why you personally consider the provided pieces of evidence as invalid. Thank you!

Well it took you 3 different replies with almost the same wording as this one to get my point, so this one isn’t on me.

Dunno how saying that you’re “wrong” can even be remotely considered as Ad Nauseum, but anyways I guess as always that’s only true when I use words or phrases like that.

Wrong. Your stance is just an opinion, like mine and like everyone else’s.

Beautiful way to invalidly over - simplify my stance, but let me remind you that two can play this game.

Lmao I was the one who from the very beginning reminded you of your right to think critically and personally decide for yourself if the pieces of evidence available are valid or not.

You think they’re invalid because you want to see solid, official data presented as well. Those are pretty difficult standards to reach, but still I totally respect your opinion.

Even more irony, but hey, as always, fallacies and the like only matter if I’m the one who’s supposedly guilty of them…

Whatever though, I’m not going to bother too much with pointless side - points.