Re Experimental: So Genji can counter Moira now?

So that’s 218 damage, then is melee 30 or 50? I can never keep it straight. If it’s 30 that leaves Reaper and Mei with 2 hp.

It’s almost like Grasp shouldn’t function the way it does.

It was only a matter of time before people complained about it, and how much damage it does, and how Moira players can essentially focus entirely on dodging hits and making it hard for people to kill them and not worry about aim at all.

Eventually the damage would be nerfed to be almost useless, because the premise is flawed from the start. You shouldn’t have an overly forgiving weapon designed to counter high mobility, you should be looking at those highly mobile characters and see if they have too much health, too much sustain, are too hard to kill for how powerful they are.

Tracer I’d say is fine honestly, she’s powerful sure but she’s like paper, the moment she’s not on recall is when you can basically melt her, and only good Tracers are an issue. But that’s kind of the point…a good player should be rewarded for nearly flawless play. Genji is perhaps a better place to start, but Beams like Symmetra and Zarya already hard counter his mobility, so why not just emulate that??? Seems like a much more reasonable solution, and you can start looking at buffing the rest of Moira’s kit without people complaining she’s too easy. The easy part of her kit would basically be gone.

these changes are most likely not going to go through with all the disagreement

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Genji and Tracer would like to say hello…

Clearly wrong, I’m afraid… :confused:

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Tell me, how does Moira hard counter them? As a reminder, a hard counter means there’s nothing you can do against the opposition with your current tool, not just that it’s an uphill battle

I’m sorry but that’s a wrong definition from the get go. If you’re damn skilled or the enemy is damn bad at the game, there’s always something you can do to defeat any hero and that doesn’t make a counter any less of a hard one…

Assuming two players are of equal skill, I’d say good luck taking on a Bastion as Winston. That’s a hard counter, there’s literally nothing Winston could do against a Bastion on his own.

Moira’s damage is so low, anyone can deal with her if you just aim well enough to hit her. Even if you land half your shots with no headshots on Soldier, he’s still putting out more damage than Moira.

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I’m going to repeat that all heroes in this game can do something and even defeat all other heroes if all the stars are aligned, no matter if one of the two hard - counters the other and vice versa.

And just like that, you’ve eliminated the majority of the player base lol :sweat_smile:

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Alrighty then, you just keep on thinking that then I suppose

Moira is certainly a counter pick to the likes of Genji and Tracer, but I ain’t buying any hard counter garbage. Tracer can one clip her potentially just like any other squishy while Moira has to expend her primary ability to have a good chance to secure the kill.

Moira wards them off better than she kills them, and only because those two characters focus on close range damage. Any long range or mid range focused characters already deal with her just fine.

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I see a lot of people say that supports need buffs to defend themselves because their team doesn’t protect them, but isn’t that backwards? It feels more like supports are good enough at defending themselves that allies feel it’s somewhat unnecessary, or rather inefficient, to assist them

Moira’s damage dealing is supposed to replenish her healing ability, not fight flankers 1 on 1. If a support is fighting a flanker 1 on 1 and their favorable option is to attack instead of retreat to safety (and make no mistake, Moira has the second-best retreat option in the game after Sombra), there’s probably something not working correctly with the character at a fundamental level

Giving support even more effective tools to defend themselves with will further the problem of their self-reliance and give teammates even less of a reason to assist them. That’s how I see it, anyway

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The rightclick-dash combo is basically identical, damage buff is better for poke, damage boost, and rightclick-melee combo

Iunno about that. Zen actually does better when the meta is damage focused, due to discord making that damage much more reliable.

That extra damage is able to cut through any amount of healing really.

Fair enough. The entire concept of what heroes are counters/hard - counters, “low skill = high reward”, frustrating to play against, overpowered/underpowered and all such adjectives are mostly subjective terms in the first place, so I don’t think we should argue to be honest :slight_smile:

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Well there should still be some counterplay involved. The problem was that moira would win most of the duels against a genji. With these buffs, genji will most likely be able to win most of the duels now, which is good. He is a dps hero after all, but moira shoukd still be able to win sometimes.

Genji mains on the dev team. It’s seriously feels like the team listens to the Genji players the most. But you try to suggest a Genji nerf, the thread gets flagged by all the one-tricks (seriously seen that happen).

Support role already has a hard time functioning. Nefing them to the point they become irrelevant, like Brig, or just have no response to a hyper-mobile DPS diving them, like Zen getting flanked by DF.

But you see, the game is balanced around GM and OWL. Anything below that doesn’t really matter.

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What chance? When? Maybe in 2016. Zen will never be meta as long he has no reponse to all the hyper-mobile DPS that can fly half a map to show up behind him. I keep saying Zen and Bastion are relics of the old more stationary OW. Symm and Torb got reworked to be more mobile, but not Zen and Bastion.

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Because this is DPS-watch. Jeff knows DPS mains are the ones playing this game the most and they’re with the most smurfs.

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I think the supports would have been fine if the other matchups were more even.

You can’t be all, “we want this matchup to be even” and ignoring that the others are not.

I’m glad I left the support role behind a long time ago.

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who does genji have positive MU chart against in the supp role? Zen? At best thats a +1 if they are equal skill. As it stands now

Genji vs Moira - +1 moira (she doesnt have to aim and has fade)
Genji vs Ana - EVEN skill vs skill duel. Who can predict the others use of abilities
Genji vs Lucio - +lucio he has more mobility, sustained heal and can boop you away from your effective range
Genji vs Brig - +2 brig. Higher health pool. Armor. Shield. Stun. Self heal and 0 aim required
Genji vs Mercy - EVEN she poses little threat but if u waste a dash and dont kill she flies away and u stand there to die. Not to mention good mercys do the super jump making it nearly impossible to get to her as a genji.

So tell me. Which matchup did i ignore?

But we have seen the time before Moira and Brig.

We have seen when Genji / Tracer were constantly 2 of the top 3 picks in GM.

Why was that? Because the fight was never even between Ana, Zen, Luxio, Mercy and the flankers.

Because if it was they would have fallen out of the meta but they didn’t, not until Moira / Brig came along.

That was the first time, EVER that they didn’t dominate the upper ranks.

Not only were those fights not even close to 50/50 it trivially probable that they were not.

What do you think would have happened IF they were 50/50 matchups? Mmm?

Genji would have sometimes died before they got there, and then had a 50/50 change of failing once he was there.

Which would mean most fights he wouldn’t have gotten any value at all.

He wouldn’t have been picked under those conditions.

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