Re experimental card recap: why reduce support Damage?

Generally they can’t, heroes like Ashe are imo the ideal, since she can’t really do much without a team enabling her to do so.

Flankers I think is where a lot of the complaints come in. And generally, I think the approach they took with Reaper and Doom is not ideal. Neither should get health before they’ve secured a kill. They should keep their lethality, but not have such immense self sustain. In Reaper’s case he really needs to be better about getting behind enemy lines, but he does not need a passive like life steal that gives him health back as he is dealing damage.

Because Tanks aren’t meant to draw aggro in PvP, imo, Tanks are the most misunderstood role, and yet really define how fights will go.

Rein for example, his shield essentially allows his team to rally behind him as he slowly pushes the front line forward. A Tank like Orisa is meant to deny area, to set herself up in a particular spot and patrol it as her own space. Winston is more closely related to what you would consider drawing aggro, he flies in and demands the enemy’s attention, but only briefly, his team mates can use him as a distraction and focus key targets amidst the chaos. Hammond can do this as well.

Tanks like DvA and Zarya serve as a sort of Bouncer, they can allow peel for their allies, but also deal damage on their own in key moments. It just depends on the strat, Deathball for Zarya, Dive for DvA. Roadhog just pulls people into his range and whomps on them, he can secure kills pretty well, but he’s flawed in that he doesn’t really provide any sort of protection for his team.

We can kinda go about it all day but I think the fundamental issue with a lot of people, including Blizzard, is they do not understand how a Tank is actually supposed to do their job. It’s not about soaking up damage or being a big target, it’s about controlling the map, and forcing fights to happen on your teams terms. It’s basically taking a fight that would normally be a Deathmatch, and forcing the enemy to fight you with more strategy or thought.

The problem is this is rarely done well, and often has a lot of issues in balance.

I think Rein is the best example of Shield Tank, Winston is kinda there…but I can’t help but feel Hammond could do his job WAY better. Orisa’s only flaw is she doesn’t have a resource meter, just a cooldown for her shield, so she isn’t really punished for staying too long in one spot, or picking a bad place to set up. Sigma is…OOF, just a lot to tackle in one sentence. But he single handedly defined a meta, and has tools for literally everything.

If this were all true then GOATs would not have happened in the first place. The issue is not them having more damage than DPS, the problem is with the right level of coordination DPS are made irrelevant, and you can easily do their job with focus fire and carefully picking targets.

Not really sure how to solve that problem, but when I look at how effective certain DPS are at actually killing things, it’s clear they are either hampered by being too oversimplified and easy, or not worth the team’s resources to get working reliably.

Rather than looking at how Dive worked and figuring out ways to increase the risk and skill needed to pull it off. This is my main issue with the Overwatch team, they add new heroes in and overbuff others rather than actually solve the complex problems they created. I get it’s hard to balance things, but a band aid solution like that is what got us to where we are now.

Well at least we can agree on Doom, but Genji isn’t really good enough on his own to warrant use.

He’s kinda like Pharah in that regard, they both can be picked off incredibly easy, and without a proper Support like Mercy or Ana they are bad picks. They don’t offer enough value on their own to be viable.

But those issues really can only be solved in Blizzard stops trying to make DPS heroes for people who can’t Duel well. Ashe is pretty strong if you can aim well, that’s why she feels so overtuned right now.

To be honest I feel like a much bigger conversation could be had between us, there’s too much nuance here to go over.

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That’s my point, too. In games where tanks don’t do a lot of damage, it’s because their job is to be damage sponges. In Overwatch, even if we roll with the definition of a tank’s job being to control the map, they’re only going to be able to do that by either CC-ing people out of it or by hitting hard enough that getting close to them is dangerous.

The original GOATS team developed the strategy because they couldn’t win against the enemy Widow with their own Widow, they decided (correctly) they would do better by running things that couldn’t crumple to crits before they reached the point. Speed boost was pretty instrumental to pulling that off, too; otherwise GOATS would have been Bunker/Bastion fodder without too much trouble.

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the weird thing about the moira change is that making moira heal more makes her better in higher ranks and worse in lower ranks
being able to vomit more healing makes her better as you go up because people play her for her heals and spammy ultimate

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Me neither. I would have made Moria full aim dependent. No other changes.

Enough DPS are deluded, they believe they are hitting misses, then healing etc does look OP.

oh my god sweetie maybe because we dont live inside a bubble like you and actually a LOT of people more than just “genji” players dont like moira at all, many supports dont

and people wonder why mercy/moira/brig players are often called clowns
“oh, someone disagrees with me? must be a genji main”

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To address the damage creep that tanks and supports complain so much about.

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I never said only genji players…but genji is a recurring hero that most moira complainers bring up

Moira has one of the lowest dps…

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Hahaha. That’s a good one. Lowering Moira’s dps by 10 will surely put a stop to all this dps powercreeping. :joy:

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It’s called “PowerCreep”, Hon… And it’s been a problem in the game for ages

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Yeah but every little bit of damage nerf helps. Other heroes can contribute.

Who says it will put a stop to it? I’m sure many tanks and supports would agree -10 dps is not nearly enough, but do you want tank and support damage nerfed further?

But why nerf one of the lowest when you could nerf the highest?

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Who has the highest? Bastion? Nerf him?

Well that is only in sentry mode, plus outside of his high dmg, he is weak

But my point was that they nerfed the wrong hero…

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And who in their right mind would want tanks and supports further nerfed?

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People who complain about damage creep.

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Then you’ve probably misunderstood the complaints about dps powercreep.

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Well tanks complain that they can’t tank anything and supports complain they can’t heal anything. Tanks and supports certainly contribute to that.

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Support and tank NERFS contribute to that yes, but the dps powercreep is undeniable.

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Indeed. I’ll refer you to this other post of mine from the other day: