She can’t be a Reaper equivalent that does everything he does as well as having tons of utility.
And it’s less of a “there’s room to buff” and more of a “this hero would be really annoying to play against is they were strong”
Hence the focus on removing her annoyance factor, and leaving room to give her plenty of lethality increases on her primary/secondary.
she will be “meh at everything” but she currently definitely is not “meh at everything”. she currently is like “meh at pocketted w+m1” and bad elsewhere.
with my proposed changes, she will adopt gameplay more akin to a flanker to flank for picks and move/claim territories dynamically rather than wait all day for an opportunity to primary like now on live, which lets be real, is really the main thing your “high sustain damage” remark is refereing to, which comes way too scarcely to be efficient.
the issue is that her tools for her to get opportunities to do her job fairly independent are either dumpstered to not be available much or just non-existent.
She was literally meta at the highest level on certain points. Don’t see the issue with the niche still
she’s more of a midranged flanker (not as immobile as genji or tracer, but makes up for that with more range on orbs) that sacrifices some burst for zoning capability. who can also choose to give up engagements for team utility.
just that the latter bit has the cost outweighed too much in further taking away her engagements long after already giving them up for a utility purpose (which needs to be fixed).
there’s a point where one need to say “tough luck” and this is it. like with all the counterability turrets have, all the cons, on top of all rhe nerfs they got (heck they even got nerfed again on exp card with the armour change), what more can be nerfed?
Can I get a clear definition of “good”? Does good mean meta or good but not meta, I think that underperforming heroes should only be buffed to mid tier because if they buffed too much they become meta and we have to clear more stuff out of the way and another hero is dumpstered because of the meta and so on, so forth.
her presence in double shield meta was literally due to the meta propping her up (spam shields making a safe catwalk to w+m1 while invalidating most dps heroes). heck she was on her way out before double shield nerfs because heroes like df and mei that have workaround barriers were actually better and people in gm already moved onto them.
and this isn’t simply about niche.
she simply doesn’t have the tools to make her function as a hero. like she’s constrained to low sustain and lower range by her primary. ok so you exoect she’d have some mobility and burst to compensate. yet she doesn’t.
she did with old 3.0 finite tp. but it got taken away.
Pretty much. They tried a Symm with buffed stats, and she got nerfed down to irrelevance in about 2 weeks.
Because they don’t like it when annoying heroes are strong.
She was played in rein mirror though
I updates my prev reply btw
you’re going to have to be more specific (like rein mirror can refer to many things). like recently on lijiang or something?
Rein Vs rein. Usually both teams played sym on control points that you play rein on typically. Rein and sym have been played together recently on Havana aswell utilised by ATL. It’s not like she’s completely trash, owl is utilising her niche on maps usually wouldn’t allow her so she’s more viable than even intended, which honestly isn’t changed by the current patch
If you think that Sym’s bigger issue thats holding her back are her sentries that are braindead easy to counter, you REALLY need to start actually see the bigger picture and not the ‘‘Sym killed me once with TP sentrybomb!!!’’.
Your first sentence is right, but not because sentries. Try again.
Annoying is subjective.
Genji is annoying, lets remove deflect and dash reset.
Tracer is annoying, lets gut her mobility.
Widow is annoying, lets nerf her scoped shots so they dont oneshot.
Because in theory she can be putting out more than 300 DPS with her sentries + primary.
Rarely happens in reality, but that possibility is what’s holding her back.
So can Widow, like 5 times in the cooldown of 1 sentry and from like the other side of the continent. What is your point.
If you actually think that what is holding Sym back is sentries because they can kill you… bro, 300 dps isnt that high for a dps at its max. Specially for Sym who has, in case you havent noticed, no damage ultimate.
The difference is that the scenario where Sym does 300dps its extremely unlikely and braindead easy to avoid.
Symmetra isn’t the kind of DPS you can expect to get picks, but that isn’t the bad part about her. I believe the cohesion her kit is missing is what pretty much every other hero in the game (except for Zen) has: a panic button.
Whether it be a mobility skill, self healing, shields/barriers, quick burst like helix, or some type of stun/cc etc. pretty much every hero other than Sym (and Zen) have an option to do something reactively. Or they flat out have easy buttons that help securing kills like flashbang, dynamite, concussion mines etc.
Her old Photon Barrier was the only panic button she’s ever had. It wasn’t good, but it was there. The closest thing she has now obviously is the new Photon Barrier, but the cast time is slower and it’s an ult, so it’s worse as a panic button, but is a better shield.
This is her design concept though. She’s designed to be preemptive instead of reactive. It would work if literally 98% of the cast didn’t have some type of panic button that can completely avoid her kit. The only other heroes that could really be counted alongside this archetype would be the old Torb, but his rework was specifically geared to making him more proactive and reactive, so he was given Overload.
If she were to get a panic button, it would have to be TP, and we’d have to sacrifice being able to TP allies for it to become a panic button. I’m fine with that, personally. If it could not TP allies, it could actually be something extremely useful for Sym herself.
I havenlt watched recent pro play, but pretty sure a lot of the time it’s rein in double shield,
haven’t seen it, but I assume it’s something along the lines of tp team to high ground, swap to widow or something. if not team pocket deathball sym.
highly doubt it was a aingle barriee comp because about any dps hero’s better at shield break compared to sym. it’s the reason why sym wasn’t prevalent at all in single barrier comps before despite being pre-nerfs.
making sym highly dependent on a team pocket to get chances to contribute (like hard gatekept kind of dependent) is simply an unhealthy design goal esp in the solo wieue dominant ladder environment. and that’s what all of us sym mains want to change
So why not remove that possibility, and then get realistic buffs.
Why cling to garbage?
Because removing Sentries wont fix any issue that Sym has - Sentries were never meant to be a reliable ranged damage source in the first place. Contruct TP breaks them.
You can buff and change sentries to not be cheesey and instead be a better combat ability, start by removing construct TP and then buff the sentries when deployed close to Sym, like more movement speed, less arming when close to Sym. Ta-da. Sentries fixed.
Removing Sentries couldnt be for the benefit of Sym players, it could be for the benefit of those who die to it and scapegoat their mistakes on Sym.
Yes, and you will get the worst respect put on Sym ever - she will lose her impactful abilities and also continue to be hated for anything to do with turrets. This would be the worst thing that could happen and literally dumpster the hero forever. Add a bit of healing to her DPS kit (like Soldier) and that’s all you need. You simply cannot displace Ana and Lucio from the top of the Support roster over time, and Sym literally would be put at the bottom behind even Brig. Think people, think.
Thats the thing, one of the main blockages to faster teleporter deployment speed is sentry bombing. Remove the sentry bombing and you could get better buffs in trade.
Srsly, if it’s garbage, why desperately hold on to it?