Especially now with a forced 2/2/2 so there will always be two dps, but they are part of the equation and not more important than all the others, or the key to winning, because everyone can do his part, and everyone must do their.
Clearly, you havent been playing Junkensteinâs Revenge over the years. The power creep is patently obvious.
is it? when multiple dps were buffed to counter goats, and along with the armour changes and nerfs to tanks and supports, almost none of these changes have been reverted?
DPS werenât underpowered at all; they were killing eachother so fast, that unless you had a 1-shot, you couldnât be played unless you had over 200hp.
Why do you think since forced 2-2-2 the most meta DPS were heroes with over 200 base HP?
Widow, and Hanzo of course get the pass since theyâve been the key problem since the end of Dive; Reaper, Doomfist, and Mei. McCree sees playtime but has horrible winrates.
Multiple dps were buffed cause of the support power creep that enabled goats. Also all those dps were buffed yet in the 2 metas weâve had since goats only 3 dps have been top tier heroes and thatâs more to do with the tank lineup rather than power levels. McCree was significantly buffed yet heâs not dominating the game and alotta others arenât either.
Not true at all. The tanks and supports have power crept this game, Brig, Sigma, Orisa and Moira have all made this game to strong. Not so much Brig anymore since they gutted her but the rest are way to strong
Sigmaâs average damage output is 21,000 in GM.
Im not a tank player, but even I pull 15,000 damage per match with Sigma. Amount of damage he deals is retarded.
It was better if he have 3 shots, but with way less global damage
I agree with your point, but a few things are inaccurateâŚ
Pharah deals more direct damage and less splash damage, and has a higher rate of fire. She definitely has an increased damage output in the right hands, but saying her splash damage was increased is incorrect.
At the cost of a decrease to splash damage, I donât think you can really count it as a buff, I think his overall damage output actually went down a bit from that change, it would be interesting to see actual data on that topic.
That said, he did receive other changes that were objectively buffs⌠the speed of his ultimate got increased drastically (it used to be one of the worst DPS ults in the game) and he got an additional mine, for example. Heâs definitely stronger than he was two years ago.
You canât really count an ability that was never even in the live version of the game. The beta had a lot of crazy things like McCree dealing 70 damage per shot with his alternate fire (in other words, he could one-clip Zarya if he landed all his shots). Besides, was Bastionâs shield even in the beta at all? It wasnât a thing anymore when I started playing him, I think the shield might have only been a thing in their internal builds. 
Either way, thatâs mostly irrelevant, because bastion was considered weaker in his shield form than he is now. Youâre ignoring the fact that he could only turn 180° at the time, which means he was just a free kill for any flanker. You get behind his back, he has go to recon form or he canât shoot you at all, and if he ever goes back to sentry you just get behind his back again. Not very engaging gameplay. The way players got around that is by sitting in a corner where there was no way to get behind him, but that also limited situations where he would be used drastically.
Only after being buffed considerably in original rework, which also buffed his primary fire, gave him more HP, a smaller head hitbox, better turret, a better ultimate AND a better secondary ability. And even thatâs after 2 years during which they had a string of buffs to every part of his kit.
TorbjĂśrn is one of the most buffed heroes in the entire history of the game. He needed those buffs, granted, but thatâs besides the point.
Those âintended numbersâ are still an increase over her pre-beam-buff numbers.
Made she become a spam-o-matic machine is horrible to play against. Spamming is ever sh1t and anti-skill.
But isnât that what everyone complained about with 2/2/2?
That you donât have options in some roles to deal with certain problems? That if you play Support and your DPS canât hit the broad side of a barn with a hitscan you canât go widow to kill the enemy Pharah? Now you can go Baptiste to do it if needed⌠problem solved!
And the non-DPS fault if enough DPS players are not willing to put up with the requirement of swapping to counter the enemy that the devs see it as a nessecity to make changes like that
The same patch also increased his deployment time and magazine size, drastically improved his recon mode, and let him self repair while moving.
To put it differently, all parts of his kit were improved at the cost of his sentry form, but that made him too weak, so they largely reverted the changes to sentry form Effectively, his spread is now 15% increased over his earlier version and canât headshot, but he also has increased damage at max range and more bullets, making sentry mode fairly comparable to how it has been in the past. At the same time his recon mode is now considerably better than it used to be, his healing is better, he has damage mitigation and can change forms faster.
Youâre right to point out that his post was inaccurate in regards to Bastion, but you still have to recognize that he definitely got buffed over-time.
Storm Arrow is a much superior weapon against tanks than scatter arrow ever has been. If Iâm not mistaken, the only tank scatter arrow could genuinely one-shot was Zarya, and it didnât really happen often, while storm arrow just makes him eat through his nominal counters like Winston.
Youâre ignoring a part of the patch again. They kept her direct shot damage the same, yes, but they also increased her rate of fire considerably, which means her direct hit DPS is now higher, at the cost of a lower damage output when only landing the splash damage.
Not true, Reaper didnât use to reload in wraith form. Itâs been a while since then, but still.
Soldier was only doing 20 damage in the past for a week, when they buffed him to that point, but that made him completely OP so they nerfed his damage back to 19 almost immediately. You can 100% count that.
I could go into your other points too, every single one selectively ignores part of the data to try and make a point.
You are having your own conversation at this point.
Tanks vary wildly, some of them are very mobile, some arenât, some move faster than the fastest characters in the game, and some have effective ranges greater than that of damage heroes. The point still stands, if damage output wasnât a concern, what value is provided by playing a damage role in a particular team?
Pharahâs rockets are complexity into itself, but the changes were not an increase in damage output. Explosive damage was decreased by 15 points and direct impact damage was increased by 15 points. Recovery time was decreased by .15 seconds and minimum explosive damage was increased by 3.75 points. The result is that Pharah still delivers the same output she always done at a faster rate than before resulting in more consistent shots. This is not a power-creep, because it still takes three direct-hit shots for Pharah to kill a target of 250 HP or less. That hasnât changed. Increasing the rate of fire, does not mean doing more damage to targets, it just boosts consistency.
Likewise, when I improve the rate of fire of McCree, Iâm not improving his damage output, Iâm improving his consistency to deliver 70 damage per shot. It still takes 3 shots to kill a target of 200 HP or less. McCree may be able to fire more shots now, but that doesnât mean all those land, but that rate of fire increase means that it is more likely that in that same span of time, McCree will likely hit a shot. Consistency improved, output remains the same.
In an FPS, damage per second barely registers unless have 100% accuracy.
If thatâs argument, then someone of lesser skill or performance is always going to lose to Widowmaker until that someone improves. This not a valid argument for a balance discussion.
Thatâs not what he was implying with Bastion. Overall spread is still higher than the reduction.
This is more of a conditional issue about improving output and the consistency of improving said output. This is still not a powercreep.
Consistency isnât about raising any skill ceiling, itâs about lowering it. Scatter Arrow is harder to land more consistently than Storm Arrow. Storm Arrows are more consistent in scoring damage, so their individual output is going to be lower. This is also, not a power-creep.
I donât think you understand. This is not about DPS. When it comes to FPS where aim is a requirement, damage per second factors little. If every shot landed, and there were minimal misses and targets had an incredible amount of sustained health, then it DPS would have higher value. But in a first-person-shooter such as Overwatch, damage per second, does not factor highly, especially when hit rates tend to be below 50%.
When Fan the Hammer delivered 420 combined with roll and performed again for another 420 damage, that output is up to 840. That has since been brought down to 300 per FTH or 600 after every FTH roll FTH. You could argue that with Rollâs cooldown decrease, this enables McCree to launch more double FTHs at a faster rate than prior, but isnât necessarily a power-creep, either.
Again, not a power creep. Especially since itâs been in the game since 2017.
Wrecking Ball has a number of ways to get in and deliver his damage, and with that high speed of his and area denial through ultimates, heâs very efficient when it comes to applying damage. But then again, most Tanks are.
If I deliver 150 damage per second, but only 30% of the time, how much damage per second am I really doing? Just because my cooldowns are lower, doesnât necessarily mean I delivering more damage.
Tracer delivers 6x2 damage per shot, clearly, Tracer is so underpowered.
The word youâre looking for is âpreceededâ as in âcoming beforeâ since the changes to Pulse Bomb were before the increase in optimal attack range.
His max splash damage is still 80. His ultimate cost has increased to compensate for the increase in damage.
7 months for 20 damage before being changed to 19 which lasted nearly two years before being boosted to 20 early this year.
Scatter could one shot Winston, Zarya, Reinhardt and Roadhog originally. When it was fixed so that it could no longer headshot, the number of tanks it could kill were reduced to Winston, Zarya and Reinhardt. It could never kill Orisa, and the way it could kill certain tanks like the above mentioned, was not possible to kill most damage or supports because they didnât have the wide hitboxes tanks had.
FWIW, Scatter Arrow could not one-shot tanks from any distance, but at the right angles and Hanzoâs positioning, they could. Most of the time, you have to be within 2 to 5 meters of Scatterâs ricochet to get all the arrows to land on you and kill you that way.
DPS in all categories including damage characters needs to be reduced. Same with healing. Thereâs power creep for both those stats. Personally, Iâd say baseline it around Mercyâs hps and Soldierâs dps and bring everyone in line with those twoâs numbers, while making slight allowances for more difficult heroes having higher value and easier heroes having lower value.
The value of being the 5th and 6th man on the team obviously, it doesnât matter if some tanks and DPS break the mold as the game is designed around concepts and not dogma. DPS characters have always been the lowest EV characters in Overwatch, that never stopped people from vastly prefferring them to the other classes. The whole idea that tanks and supports are just shield and heal bots is what makesno one want to play them, with 2/2/2 lock you can actually design fun tanks and supports without invalidating DPS because the class is basically the diversity hire quota of the game.
No.
20 charactersâŚ
So when a tank does incredibly negligible damage and therefore doesnât pose a threat to dps heroes, what then?
I meant the size of his projectiles, sorry, my choice of words was very poor. Either way, it wasnât a straight up increase in terms of his damage output, it was a tradeoff.
Youâre mostly right here too, I really remember it lasting a much shorter duration. Maybe the data Iâm looking at includes the PTR period or Iâm just midremembering. Either way, looking at the abilityâs history on the OW Wiki, it was 17 damage per bullet originally before being increased to 20 per bullet for a few days over 6 months and then decreased to 19 until the latest change put it back to 20.
Scatter arrow could only headshot for 1 or 2 months in the beta, i donât think we should really count beta for anything here, because there were way too many changes all over the place to decide which of them we can consider as âthe original version of a heroâ. It makes sense to take the day of the gameâs release as the original version of the hero, agreed?
Anyways. This was the data for Scatter arrow for the entirety of itâs existence:
Scatter Arrow:
29 - 125 damage for the initial shot
22 - 75 damage per fragment
6 fragments per shot
In other words, if you land literally all the projectiles at short range, that adds up to a total burst of 450 damage. That was done relatively consistently on tanks by shooting the arrow at their feet, and it was enough to kill Zarya at itâs ideal range, but no other tank at the time.
Now, theoretically, if you land the original shot AND all the projectiles bounce into the enemy as well by some incredible coincidence (all at the right range), the 575 damage is enough to kill Reinhardt and Winston, but thatâs the only way that can happen, and I donât think Iâve seen that happen once in all the time Iâve played the game.
Now, if you do want to count that, then Scatter arrow could kill Roadhog as well, because the original arrow, before it splits, can headshot, so the max damage it can deal is actually 700.
To put it shortly, in theory, scatter arrow could kill all the tanks. In practice, it killed Zarya. 
You sound like a DPS main mad that you tried to 1v1 a Moira (Bad idea if you donât catch her with fade on cd).
Thereâs only 2 supports atm that can out DPS an actual DPS, and thatâs Moira, and Bapt with his buff.
You sound like you want supports to just sit there and let you kill them, well guess what? Not gonna happen. So hereâs my final advice to youâŚ
GET GUD SCRUB