PSA: How To Deal With Fallacious Arguments About Sym's Rework

All I can say is that when that rework hits live she’s gonna be actually viable unlike her 2 current and previous versions. Her current version is NOT gonna be made viable with number tweaks mainly due to the fact her kits is just poorly done to, the point where she’ll be either OP or extra UP.

Okay, I hear you. I think these are not totally unfair comments. Let me try to address them.

Two comments on this. One, the argument I presented does indicate that the speaker thinks the “because she does more damage” justifies calling the turrets more impactful. So I feel confident in my logic there. Two, this is an actual argument used by dev Geoff Goodman, it was said in response to someone worrying that fewer turrets would have less impact, and it defined impact in exactly the terms presented here.

I hear what you’re saying here. You’re right, the Reinhardt analogy is not perfect and malleable to all situations. I don’t buy that this is equivalent to giving Reinhardt two barriers though – this literally, numerically reduces the number of options for how Symmetra can deploy turrets. What you’re arguing here would actually be an argument for MORE turrets, not fewer.

Okay, this is fair, and I’ll change the original post. It doesn’t logically follow that the person is claiming other characters are AS accessible as Symmetra. The argument I was trying to frame was “it’s fine that they’re changing Symmetra because there are other characters you can play as a disabled person” – but if you read other comments on this thread, you’ll see a number of comments detailing why that argument isn’t compelling for disabled players. You’ll also see an analogy with stairs and a wheelchair ramp – I guess this is more like shortening the ramp and giving it a steeper incline: in principle still usable by people with chairs, but not in a friendly way.

I think I understand what you’re getting at here. It’s not my intention to speak for disabled people as a uniform class of person, and I can make that clear if it’s confusing. Describing accessibility for some disabled people isn’t any more normative than describing a wheelchair ramp for some disabled people though, I think? Unless we’re not operating on the same definition of “normative.”

The rest of your comments dealing with usage of the word “fallacious” are also fair – as described in the post, the word is defined as “not based on logical inference,” but actually I used it in the more broad “not based on proper belief or understanding” sense. That’s fair. I’ll update the original post.


Well, I respect that you’ve not taken to ‘firing back’.
This word is a bugbear for me. The most common function of the word “fallacious” or “fallacy” is to identify the 13 year old atheists who think it distinguishes them as intellectual.


LOL no argument here.

Reworks should never be done just for the people playing one hero, that is selfish and goes against the nature of Overwatch. And if you think this rework is only for the players who hate Symmetra, then you are misguided. Reworks are done based around the state of the game as a whole, to make the whole game experience better, and for the future state of Overwatch.

You may have suggestions on how to change the hero without undergoing a total rework, but your problem is you are only looking at and caring about Symmetra. You fail to look at Overwatch as a whole, and Overwatch in five years from now.

The devs, who know better and care more than you, are thinking about every aspect of the game when undergoing reworks. They clearly do not think tweaking or reworking parts of her kit is good enough. I am sorry if you do not like the change that is happening, or the way it is happening. But change like this in a game like Overwatch was always inevitable.


I have a lot of time as Symm and I commend you on your thorough write out of a lot of things that I also see. I have weird comp gaps because of going from PC to PS4 and then back to PC. My last two comp seasons on PS4 though was all done with Symm and I think I ended on 2300-something. I see lots of value for her for even higher ranks.

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Just because you created something, it don’t mean you actually understand everything about that something. There are countless examples of game devs being surprised of interactions they were not anticipating in their games, or writers that are surprised at some fan interpretations to the point they liked it and added them to canon status afterwards.

I agree the devs have data that we can only dream on analyzing, since the game don’t have a public API at all, global stats can only be presumed by voluntary data gathering websites like Overbuff. But as Jeff himself said in this video, data alone is not enough to determine if something is broken. And the part of the triangle they seem to be listening is the loud community saying that Symmetra is a terrible hero.

But the main problem is that they are not listening to the people that actually play Symmetra. I mean, a single dev post in the Symmetra megathread saying “thanks for all your feedback, we took a look at it, and will consider it when doing the Symmetra rebalance” would be more than enough to appease a lot of players.

The accessibility issue is one of the unintended victims of this rework. I don’t think the devs are purposefully laughing and thinking in ways to remove all the disabled players from the game. I think they were trying their best to make it good for the community, and the accessibility removal was an oversight possibly because of a lack of disabled devs to speak about that in their meetings (which is why representation matters in big board meetings).

So, we are screaming out loud that oversight, in the hopes the devs don’t ruin a perfectly serviceable ramp unaware of the consequences.


This is entirely subjective. In my opinion, Mercy is much more accessible.

Accessibility does not inherently matter. People generally make the argument that accessibility caters to a different group of people, and expands the playerbase; however, games like Fortnite are much larger and reward mechanical skill much more. Also, Symmetra becoming more mechanically intensive would not be disingenuous of Blizzard – their statement about being accessible holds true; in fact, there are more accessible heroes now than when the game launched (cough orisa, moira, brigitte).

Because game balance, self-evidently, should work on the assumption that the players have a level of competency. It should give lower ranks the incentive to improve to a level where their desired hero is viable (if applicable). That’s why heroes such as Tracer and Widowmaker are awful at lower tiers, because they can’t aim and that’s their fault. However, there are some exceptions to this balance philosophy, such as low skill heroes like Symmetra and Torbjorn, who have AI do half the work for them. And that’s partially why Symmetra is being reworked, because she’s the only hero who has a high damage/range auto aim primary fire in the game (and AI turrets that do the work for her lol) (and a teleporter/shield gen that, once placed, do the work for her lol)

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I don’t mean to be rude, but how are you interpreting “accessible”? The context in this thread is focusing on disabled individuals being able to partake in the game.

Mercy is an easily accesable hero.

This is a big reason for it. I have no clue why, in this day and age, a large company like Blizzard hasn’t hired an accessibility consultant to provide a sounding board amd suggestion for all its gaming properties. Heck, even Ubisoft is trying to reach out and make their games more accessible. Ubisoft of all companies.

The issue is that her current design may give accessibility but she also gives very little value in comparison to the majority of the roster.

Other hero’s are better at choke points then her while also having uses outside of that niche. Other hero’s have better overall value in a team fight due to higher utility, damage, and survival along with ultimates that can be used as a reaction in a team fight. Even Torb’s ultimate has mid fight value that is directly tied to the player using it.

If you sacrifice a support slot for her your sustain is low due to the low impact sym has with her shield gen. If you sacrifice a DPS for a sym you have to just hope the rest of the team can prop up the damage. If you sacrifice a tank your solo tank better have PERFECT positioning and the healer’s will be stressed to keep everyone alive.

The truth is that Sym HURTS the team right now when she is played. Which means despite her accessibility to those who lack the mechanical skill or physical ability to play other hero’s she has to change.

If a hero’s design is HURTING the game overall then the hero has to be changed. Be it from being over-tuned to the point of oppressive or under-tuned to the point of creating a disadvantage against the enemy.

Personally, I have never thought “Thank god we had a Symmetra.” after a match finished. That is how low her impact is for her team and how much more valuable other picks are in her place.

Quite the interesting post, not bad.
While I do like a lot of your points, there are a few problems here.

For one, Symmetra isn’t quite as accessible as you make her sound just from how badly recieved she usually is when picked. Mechanically, she might be, but socially…not so much.

Secondly, how accessible a hero is depends on what the limiting factor(s) are, so Symmetra may very well not be the only one, at least in some cases.

Third, you didn’t addess all of the rework changes. The newer teleporter actually sounds more strategic if you ask me, given how many possibilities it can unlock. Sure, the turrets might be less strategic now, but there’s more to Sym than just those.

Fourth, if the rework really makes Symmetra that unaccessible, then what would you propose doing instead? I agree with wanting to keep her accessible, but she also needs to be more viable too. Until she is, there will simply not be enough social acceptance of playing her, and that will limit how accessible she can be. Plus, there are plenty of Symmetra players (including myself), that would really like to see her be used a bit more, and not be frowned upon as much. Either way, something has to give. She can’t be left entirely as she is now. So if not the changes proposed by the devs, then what?

Accessibility is linked to mechanical ability. Social problems are not handled via buffing/nerfing.

Fair enough, but my point still stands:
Sym’s accessibility is less useful when it’s hard to pick her without getting borderline harassed about it.

Dealing with idiots doesn’t make her less accessible. Most of us with disabilities are used to people acting ridiculous towards us.


Reading your argument, I can understand as to why there’s a need for an accessible hero for those who can’t aim well with their respective handicaps, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Symmetra has to be THE hero to accommodate this need.

While Symmetra is moving into the direction of being intuitive as a hero and leaving her Lock-On aim and Shield Generator, that doesn’t necessarily mean that another hero could take the mantle of “accessible for the disabled” hero. Who knows, maybe the next hero could be the hero that can fit this need.

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You’re purposely ignoring everyone who gives you the reason why her Winrate is high. You’re willing to use it as an argument even after multiple people told you why is a disoroportional stat

Have you ever thought of the possibility that blizzard just does not know how to balance a non healer support or the current iteration of symmetra

However, there is no denying that she already cover this need. Why remove the perfectly serviceable ramp in the hopes that maybe, perhaps, in the future, another ramp will be build in its place?

I’m not ignoring. I’m disagreeing with them. That’s different.

Symmetra 1.0 was a first point defense only hero. She got winrates as high as 75% at one point in time. That is a huge notch above the curve, and the reason why she had such discrepancy were important.

Symmetra 2.0 is not. Since the first rework, she hinges around 60% winrate, which while high, is not as extreme as it was before, and a good portion of that is because more people were using her either in the full defense half of the match, or the full game (attack and defense), which removed the factor that made Sym 1.0 have a winrate so inflated in the first place.

I think the biggest problem is ignoring a characters flaws because a small number of players don’t want those flaws to be changed.

Welcome to the gaming world where characters get reworked all the time. Go look at literally any moba. Each rework is full of supporters and non supporters this is literally just one of those countless times.

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