PSA: How To Deal With Fallacious Arguments About Sym's Rework

Good thread! Hopefully the dev’s will take this into account, since accessibility is so often treated as an afterthought.

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they sure do ignore them when someone presences the horror of the hanzo widow genji instalock

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My point is that hybrid heroes fit multiple slots, and the “actual” slot they use is dependent on the rest of their team comp, and how they are performing in regard to their team.

Zenyatta can be a support if he focus on damage just enough to get Trans, and then play more cautiously; or as a DPS if they are being possessed by JJonak spirit and start sniping people out.

Zarya can be a tank if he relies on bodyblocking for her teammates and bubbling them up. She can be a DPS if she prioritizes keeping a high charge and melting people with her laser.

Symmetra can be a DPS if she plays in the front line threatening people with her beam range if they push, and throwing orbs aggresively. Or she can play support by standing on the backline, protecting her ult, and warding the zone her team is holding.

Good hybrid play jumps from one style to another seamlessly, and you probably are not even noticing you are doing that when playing them. And those heroes are a problem when you talk specifically about “party slots”, for a bunch of reasons that one day I swear I’ll lay out in a thread so I can just quote myself instead of re-typing it every time people talk about slots.

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Sym wasn’t even intended to be played by disabled people. She should feel good as any other hero without having a small group of people claiming she should stay the same.

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Then how could we buff Sym without breaking her? We can’t buff her weapon without removing her auto lock, which means she can’t be a better DPS. She can’t become a better support without healing (which is something many Sym mains don’t want).

I made a list.

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The problem is that those changes don’t make her a better support or DPS.

When used Zarya and Zenyatta as examples of hybrids that worked, you ignored the fact they work primarily in one role and have a high DPS.

When you used Mei and Sombra, you didn’t mention how they’re not that good in either role. Your changes would put Symmetra in the same place as them.

Mei is in a good place right now. Only need to fix a few bugs, and it’s set.

Sombra need some work (as I also said above), but I don’t play her that much, so I don’t know what specifics she might require.

Not really, it’s because they are classified as “tank” and “support” in the game role, so since part of their kits works in those slots, they place them there and never question it again. Symmetra is the exception mostly because a lot of people think support equal healing (and looks like Blizzard now abide by that as well, which is sad), and since Sym don’t heal, she can’t possibly be a support. So people start discussing how she actually should be a DPS.

Which brings another problem I have with 2-2-2, that is “DPS is a loose term that have no meaning in context for Overwatch”. But that is literally discussion for another thread.

The problem you seem to be ignoring is Symmetra will always be sub-par to other supports due to her lack of healing. In what situation would utility be better than healing?

Discord Orb, Damage Boost, Shield Bash, Nano Boost, Speed Crossfade… all are utility skills. If you can see the value in Lúcio using Speed song instead of Healing song, you already know when Utility is better than Healing.

Shield Generator allow your team recovering from chip damage with a little cover while your healer stays in the big target (boosting phat DPS or healing the tank), and literally becomes a secondary objective that the enemy team have to deal with, and this can split their team.

Turrets slow (IMO, the slow is more important than the damage) and can act as an tripwire, telling your team which way the enemy team is attacking from even if they approach sneakily from outside your sight.

Photon Barrier is extremely useful, and probably the best part of her kit outside of ultimates. But its usage is more akin to old Defense Matrix (the one that was on a cooldown) than Rein/Orisa barrier. That thing have a ton of HP, and its extremely rare that it will break before just hitting a wall.

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Yo, this is actually beautifully wrote. Did you take any philosophy classes, by chance?

These all come along side healing. Symmetra only brings utility.

The devs could had to choose either to make her a healer with high damage or a DPS with utility. We know whitch one they chose.

I’m talking specifically about abilities, not the full hero. But ok, let’s make a thought experiment.

Let’s start with a baby A plain hero with a terrible pistol that have 150 HP and no active ability. That hero have a passive that makes everyone’s Quick melee button activates a Tracer’s Blink.

That hero have no damage, no healing, and no tankiness. But its extremely OP providing only utility. And giving everyone in the team Blink is much more effective to raise the team’s survivability than healing.

The fact that such a hero can exist means that there is a sliding scale of utility. Somewhere within that scale, there is a sweet spot where the utility of a hero is equal to the benefit of having a second healer. In my opinion, Symmetra is close to that sweet spot. In your opinion, she is not. In the devs opinion, they gave up trying to find that sweet spot and opted for a solution where they no longer need to search for it.

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Is this a question…? orrrr are you telling me what I think?

Why does she need to do damage?

Do you think it is a bigger problem that one character out of twenty-eight and counting is not used at the professional level, or that a whole class of people is barred from playing the game?


But finding that sweet spot would likely mean changing her accessibility, which is the whole point of this thread.

I’d actually be interested in seeing what data you have on where Symmetra is successful or not – is this something they have on, like, Overbuff?

Why would it need to change her accessibility?

I believe she is very close to being balanced, and her biggest issue right now is her reputation with the community, not the strength of her kit.

Currently, her beam is not even her most useful feature, its an emergency tool like Mercy’s pistol. What makes her accessible is not “oh, she have autolock”, because we have a bunch of other heroes that don’t require aim (Mercy, Reinhardt, Winston, Moira…), and they are considered balanced, and are not accessible the way Symmetra is.

What make Symmetra accessible is a combination on how her whole kit works. That’s why you don’t mess with it carelessly. And when the rework hit PTR, I actually expect the devs to send alongside it a very carefully written response regarding those worries. Not doing so means the dev team stopped caring about accessibility as an objective, and that is a much more problematic issue than an unnecessary full rework.

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Can you cite a source for this?

you are using emotions instead of reason. If there is a hero that is not viable in higher ranks and is considered a throw pick it means the hero isn’t accessible. It promotes bad design and encourages bullying and prejudice against certain type of players. Unfortunately symmetra’s kit needed HUGE changes and that’s what she’s getting. This is for the greater good and i feel bad for the OG sym players but this is honestly what had to be done.


This is not how you define if a hero is accessible.

Also, highest winrate amongst all heroes since launch. She isn’t a throw pick, only seem as one. And that is a community issue, not a nerf/buff issue.

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