Technically everybody sees than you hacked somebody, that you bursted down somebody low not everybody sees ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
All she has is burst damage. How is that autonomous?
No sustain, no shield break, no point contest…
She really relies a lot on her team, and it’s foolish to claim otherwise.
That’s why one of the most requested features for Sombra is a Sugar Skull above hacked enemies, right?
If you wait until after Sombra hacks to draw attention to the hack, you’ve wasted time, especially with the nerf to Hack duration.
Also, bringing somebody low requires communication to follow up on, sure. That’s communication that pretty much every hero requires–maybe except Mercy (b/c she really doesn’t get kills that much). Widowmaker is not special in this regard, and honestly, because of her raw damage with headshots (and even bodyshots, to be frank), there’s honestly less pressure for her to depend on teammates to follow up shots.
Because she doesn’t require a considerable amount of teamwork for her core mechanics to function? I’m not entirely sure you understand what it means to be autonomous here. A lot of DPS are comparatively autonomous, but Widowmaker has a unique advantage in that her OHKO requires fewer instances of coordinated fire, her long range requires fewer instances of support from healers (as opposed to heroes on the front line), and her Grapple reduces instances of needing peeling from her tanks.
“No sustain,” neither have a lot of other heroes, but they don’t have the range or mobility to mitigate that weakness
“No shield break,” lots of heroes don’t have good shield break. It’s a strength of a handful of heroes rather than a weakness of some.
“No point contest,” probably the only one where you sorta have a point if we assume that point contest only means being physically only the point so it reads “contested,” and it’s one of the reasons that I and many others have supported reworking Widowmaker (because a hero in an objective-focused-team-focused game who cannot do this is bad design). That said, she’s able to heavily zone out areas because of the threat of her sniper rifle, which does provide impede enemy objective progress because they’re forced into disfavorable positions or to pile behind a barrier tank.
So, at best, you’re 1 for 3. In reality, you’re like… 1/2 for 3. Your argument is a joke. It’s nothing but pure, unfettered bias to say she’s anything other than one of the most autonomous heroes in the game.
I see way more people who can manage being a great tank than I see people who manage to have great aim.
I highly doubt it. One of the reasons for my skepticism is that tank is the least played role in the game. Way less people play tank than they play DPS.
Top tier (high GM - pro) tank players are actually rare. You prolly have no idea what you’re talking about.
Im friending you on xbox
Skill requirement does NOT make an OP skill less OP. Its OP. Explain why an OP skill becomes NOT OP when the player is good at aiming?
Here’s an example. Imagine if Hammond had a sniper rifle he could only use while moving through the sky at 100 MPH. That sniper rifle has no cooldown, can shoot through barriers and 1 shot tanks. Is that OP?
I dont think worse players should beat better players, that’s why i want OP 1 shots removed. A bad widow can beat a good widow if they get lucky with a 1 shot.
It does not become OP, because they had to get good at aiming.
I don’t think that speed is actually achievable, so that would most definitely be utterly useless.
And that’s a lie.
So, you’re saying something CANNOT be OP if you have to aim?
What if there was an ability that gave you a full team wipe instakill if you hit 2 headshots in a row? That’d be ridiculously OP, but OK because it takes skill?
No, its not a lie. A bad widow can definitely beat a good widow in a 1v1. If the bad widow has 25% accuracy and a good widow has 50%, the bad widow will win about 12.5% of the time (if my maths is right). Tell me why thats a lie?
Straw man and you know it.
What are you comparing it to? You lost the reference…
Need more details. What are the other trade offs for the ability.
Widow can net you two kills at most with 2 consecutive headshots, what’s the trade off compared to that to dish out like 6 more headshots worth of damage through barriers and stuff?
Not that, the part where you used that as a reason to remove one shots.
Never mind that a lucky kill hardly matters. The game isn’t played until first blood.
Even the duel mode is a best of 9…
Agree with the title, don’t agree with the post.
No, you’re saying its OK for something to be OP if skill is required, therefore if something requires aim, it cant be OP.
There are no other trade offs. 2 headshots in a row requiring aim and the ENTIRE team dies. They explode, or something.
Oh, simple - if it wasnt a 1 shot, there’d be a second shot. The more consistent player would be more likely to hit the second shot, therefore the bad player would be more likely to lose.
You can have balance issues among aim based heroes too, but that’s a different issue than the one we were talking about.
I don’t think I have enough information to judge that.
That’s actually utterly false. The chance to win would stay the same, the thing that changes is the variance.
I’m not going to do the math properly, but my guesstimate would be that it’s around 33%, considering that the better one will land twice as many shots.
Correct, that’s a different issue to what we’re talking about, so get back to the point - you think Overpowered things (things that are too powerful and bad for the game) are OK if they require aim skill. The literal definition of overpowered is “too powerful”.
You have all the information you need to judge that. Take widow right now and apply my 2 headshot rule on top and tell me that’s not OP.
If a bad widow gets a lucky 1 shot vs a good one, they win. If that widow COULDNT 1 shot, the other better widow could survive and turn things round, because they’re better at hitting shots - I dont really understand why that’s confusing?
Cool, 33% chance of the bad widow winning is even better for my point - why would you be supporting that? Surely the bad widow shouldnt stand such a high chance of winning when they’re markedly worse?
Why would it be the same? Different heroes have different advantages. You could have a trash Widow and a god Reaper fighting, but if Reaper has to cross an open field with no cover why would you expect him to kill Widow?
Because Overwatch is a hero based shooter that is designed for some heroes to have advantages over other heroes, simply being “better” doesn’t mean you win fights, because different heroes require different things to be good. Widowmaker needs aim and positioning. Moira needs positioning and resource management.
Out of curiosity, how did you get to GM as Widow if you put yourself in positions where Moira can kill you before you hit her?
Funny how aim is apparently the highest echleon of skill in overwatch, yet top tier players frequently beat aimbotters because of their superior game sense that the hacker is lacking. Not because they have better aiming skills than aimbots lol. Kragie even has a series about it.
People acknowledge aim is a skill, however it’s only aim elitists who keep insisting that aim is the most important skill in overwatch and should be the most rewarded one. Pure aim and mechanics can only get you so fair, for the rest you need impeccable game sense. Necros might be the “fastest genji” you can find, but he’s nowhere close to Haksal’s skill.
If aim is the end of all means to overwatch, why in blazes do we have tank and support category then? Just to prop up the dps players? That’s not the kind of gameplay people want or need.
Sure, it’s the kind of gameplay and mindset trash tier league like OWL propagates that dps players and aim is the only thing that matters, but OWL is a trash tier league anyway with equally trash casters.
There is big skill to be found from Coma’s mercy gameplay when he bodyblocks for DDing’s barrage that saved his life in more than one occasion, but since it’s not aim skill, it’s swept aside by the accomplishments of pointing and clicking a mouse. Casters didn’t even bother to acknowledge it, but everyone else who plays non-dps saw it immediately.
Oh wait I forgot, this thread was only a veiled “nerf moira thread”, my bad. =)
Skill requirement is a big balancing factor. Certain things that you could reasonably consider OP if they were easy, like one shoting, can be balanced out by making them hard. That’s why I consider Widow balanced, but not Doomfist.
Okay, that actually could be reasonably considered OP.
Widow is balanced, and that’d be a straight massive upgrade.
Why did you need me to say this?
As I said, the chances would not change if you lowered the burst damage, only the variance.
Calling 33% high 
If he lands a clean headshot, he earned that kill. That’s how the better Widow earns his kills too.
Having advantages and disadvantages between heroes with equal skill requirement is irrelevant to this discussion. (I’ll be generous with Reaper 
)
Rock paper scissors is balanced, as all symbols take the same skill to use.
Before Moira got released there was a dive meta, and trying to play safe was impossible, as I’d get dove no matter what. So I played really aggressive trying to kill the enemy team before they even dove in. That was no longer viable because Moira can kill Widow too easily, whereas Tracer and Genji need a good player behind them.
But even now playing super safe is sub-optimal, you lock yourself out of too many angles, lowering your chances to get picks.
It’s not irrelevant. You asked
And this is your answer: Some heroes have inherent advantages over other heroes. That’s why it is different.
You’re seriously overistimating Moira’s reach if you’re locking yourself out of angles because of Moira. Play against Moira at the same distance you would play against hog, and you’re fine.
Gotta like how widow mains who don’t ever need to let moira close fail to kill a moira and somehow die to her (moira is not vertical hero, don’t stand on ground level?), but I will go guns blazing to kill that moira as Mercy to avenge my fallen Ana and beat her down despite her strafing, not once but twice, completely ruining their flank attempts because I have eyes and ears and valking my team to victory.
Just assert dominance over the flank moiras and show them just how pathetic their tickle beam is. Nothing short of a soloulti ain’t gonna work lol.
people who play this game can’t handle the skill that aim requires.
they want a safe space. a choreographed dance. they do not want to have to challenge themselves. they want every engagement to be the same and claim they want diversity and interesting gameplay but have always settled for homogenization and been content with it.
gameplay gets like that at the highest levels. but only because players have the skill to own it.
But they want it for themselves. Because they paid $40. Or whatever. They deserve it, for just existing.
It’s just this generation man. They want everything for nothing.
Bingo. Just to provide an example, my aim is actually much better than my boss’s. Even on his main, Hanzo, I have ~8% higher accuracy than he does. Guess which of us has reached GM and which of us is in Platinum?
Aim only gets you so far. In truth, aim profits from other skills more than other skill profit from it. Even in pure shooters, someone with mediocre aim but excellent game sense and positioning will flatten someone with great aim but mediocre game sense and positioning.