Doomfist as well, Mei if you consider freeze to be a stun (arguable either way), but the rest of your post is spot on.
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I wanted hit you with the Mei trap card… But you added it before I could.
Given how long it takes Mei to ‘stun’, it’s debatable. Doom and McCree’s proc as soon as they connect. Doom’s stun cleaves, so technically it’s even better than flashbang 
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Cleave? Eh. I thought it being tied to one of the most mobile abilities on a 4 second cooldown that could also instant kill near walls was a bigger reason that rocket punch was better than flash. But cleave is good too.
I totally agree, my point wasn’t that brig was OP/UP or needs changes, my point was that winrate is a skewed stat which is influenced severely by play time during the match, and an infinite number of variables.
That’s true that his winrate is high, but as I’ve said we need to look at more data than just his winrate, in my opinion.
His pickrate firstly in the overwatch league, is very low, and GM, and although we shouldn’t be using this data alone, we should be taking it into account, similar to winrate. Genjis generally been a historically high winrate hero, I have data from 2018 which showed genji to be top 3 picked and winning dps, but this makes no sense because brigitte was absurdly overpowered at the time and hard countered him extremely, and he’s been buffed a lot since then and he’s even worse somehow.
Also, This is quite concerning since OWL are playing dive a lot. So he should be picked in these scenarios, but isn’t. He also has a low pickrate on ladder, so that would mean he’d fit into a similar boat as other lower picked heroes, he’s also an incredibly popular hero which makes no sense why his PR would be low if so many people enjoy playing him. Look at GM QP data, people WANT to play genji, but they dont in ranked.
Though I am genuinely surprised as to how much genji has risen all of a sudden, it appears he’s not as bad as I initially thought, though I do believe he is slightly undertuned still.
Absolutely agreed, that’s why I like to wait until monthly data comes out before I draw any valid conclusions. Unless I’m just venting or something. But that’s especially why it’s important not to call a specific meta while GM pickrates are fluctuating. Contenders have been picking a LOT of double shield recently, and it’s looking like we’re going back into a double shield meta again…
That’s exactly my point! So do you think sigma was still OP?
In regards to what you said about moira, everything you said was correct. Though maybe her healing was initially a bit too high (80hps was pretty insane), she was indeed good mainly due to other various factors (what you mentioned).
This is something I wanna bring up about mcree. People call him “robot hero” but he’s actually WAY harder than people give him credit for, that’s why there’s such a big winrate difference in all ranks and GM.
Yeah that’s totally true, and I think we should be looking at soldiers viability. Why is his winrate so low? It makes no sense, he’s historically been a high winrate hero, and now suddenly he’s at the depths of F tier winrates with an awful pickrate, not only that, but he’s being rarely picked at all in OWL.
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Yeah I don’t consider Mei having a “stun” ability even though I guess she technically has one. How reliable is it to actually stun someone with it, given how long it takes? I rarely get any “stuns” with it outside of comboing with ult to increase the speed. Mainly, I find her value in the wall.
I guess you got me in Doomfist. But you gotta fling his whole body to do it, which adds an element of danger that flashbang doesn’t have. It also has a bit of charge up time as well which makes it a much clunkier stun to use.
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I see junkrat so much more than McCree ever since McCree’s nerfs.
The people lowering McCree’s winrate returned to their natural habitat.
It is pretty well known that Genji has a relatively weak base kit, with an overwhelming ultimate. If you pick him, you are mostly picking him for his ultimate. I would not mind power shifting some of his ultimate power into his base kit. But most Genji mains just want straight buffs to his base kit with no compensation. This is how you push him straight into OP status. We have already seen it. In case you forgot.
Further, you can only pick 2 heroes. Just because dive is meta in OWL, doesn’t mean Genji is in the top 2 DPS to go with it. Tracer is pretty much undisputedly the top, and the last spot has quite a bit of competition. Do you pick another dive hero? Anti-dive hero? Just because Genji isn’t the one chosen for the second spot doesn’t mean he’s weak. The data we have doesn’t support that argument whatsoever. There are 17 DPS to choose from, some heroes are naturally going to be less chosen than other heroes.
Absolutely he was OP. He’s in contention with Moth Mercy or release Brig for strongest heroes the game has ever seen. If the question is, at what point did he stop being OP to just being good, I don’t know. I do not believe he’s the strongest tank currently, but rather somewhere in the middle. Does that mean I like playing him in his current state? No. As mentioned earlier, I hardly ever play him now because of said nerfs. But it doesn’t mean he’s not balanced and certainly far away from being the worst tank.
I don’t know what “robot hero” means. Like easy? He’s actually one of the harder heroes in the game because of his terrible kit and high precision weapon. The reason he has the perception of being easy is because flash + fan combo is easy. Forumers paint a picture that he just walks around flash fanning everybody all game long for free wins. But only Forum McCree does that. Reality is he gets 2.93 fan kills per game. It doesn’t happen that often and if you get flash + fanned you were out of position.
I don’t recall there ever being a time when Soldier was a top tier DPS. As far as why he’s weak, it mainly has to do with the type of damage he has. Sustain damage is always going to be weaker than burst unless the consistency to get that damage far exceeds the burst because it is harder to confirm a kill. Sustain damage would be a lot stronger in a game where healing and shields didn’t exist. I think the bigger question is, why would you pick him? I know the reason why I do -> sprint & ease of play. But if these are the main reasons to pick a hero, I think it’s obvious why they aren’t very strong.
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Well you’re not wrong that his base kit needs to stay worse than his ultimate, but I don’t think a suggestion such as… 29 dmg shurikens would break him. I have some other ideas for him but that’s for another thread. I don’t think genji mains want him OP though, a lot of them are really nice on this forum and generally really reasonable, especially the more vocal ones. I’ve seen some even propose 5 nerfs for 1 buff! Which seems a bit excessive… And some people claimed this person wanted genji OP 
Oh totally, I just think he should be better than he currently is. Like, map dependant or something, not 1% pickrate and even less in OWL, that’s just absurd.
The thing is, doesn’t it?
I feel like he should be played a little bit more while we’re partially in a dive meta, especially in OWL.
Oh I agree for sure he was OP on release, I just think the lastest nerf (when he got his barrier cooldown doubled) was frankly, absurd and unnecessary.
And yeah as you said you hate playing him because his nerfs made him feel absolute trash to play as.
Yeah that’s what I meant. I hear things like “braindead robot hero” all the time like he takes 0 skill!
He used to be meta back in S3, but that’s it really. He can be meta it’s just… the devs don’t seem to want him meta? It’s confusing. Like, he’s a really healthy hero.
He’s supposed to be picked for dealing high damage on off angles basically. That’s the reason for the sprint and self heal, he should be able to run around pressuring the enemy team. So he should in theory be good in this meta as well, because he works quite well for dive. Poke was the last meta and he sucked in that as well. Really goes to show how bad he is huh?
Did genji’s turn nerf cree to buff genji thread.
Cheesecree needs decheesing, reduce DMG or fall of for fth.
I have already shown you why it doesn’t. He has one of highest win rates of any of the DPS which means that when he is played, he is excelling tremendously. Just because he isn’t played over some arbitrary % in OWL doesn’t mean he’s weak. In fact you could drop down a rank to master and see he’s picked the 4th most. Drop 1 more rank and see he’s picked the 3rd most. All with above average win rates. And this is supposed to convince me he’s a weak hero in need of buffs?
A flat buff of 1 damage doesn’t sound like a lot, but it changes the breakpoints. It’s also a flat buff on a hero that isn’t underperforming whatsoever. If the goal of buffing him is just to make him one of the top 2 picked DPS then I guess… but that is a different discussion than for the sake of balance.
I don’t think he was OP with 1 second CD on barrier. I think Blizzard has made it clear they have agendas with balance patches where not every change is strictly to do with balance but often times they just want to adjust the meta to their desired specification.
Well then I guess you found the problem then haven’t you? I certainly am not picking him to deal high amounts of damage. I can deal more damage, with burst, with Ashe if I’m going to play Hitscan. Which just goes to show what he really needs is +1 damage back on his gun.
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And I have two things to say to that, firstly, genjis pickrate is low, so he’ll only be picked by players who are good at him (i.e one tricks), or in scenarios he’s good in (i.e lots of high ground),. low picked heroes have winrates that fluctuate much more also, if you look at his winrate today for example in GM it’s 42%, 2 days ago it was 72.7%. He also is one of those heroes with a historically high winrate.
Genji is a very popular hero (QP data proves this) so ideally he should have a higher pickrate, and actually I’d say a lot of the genji players being in masters is actually concerning, because it means a lot of GM genji mains have dropped down from GM to masters playing the hero.
And lastly, this is a pretty decent meta for him, although I wouldn’t expect him to be a top pick, such as tracer, I’d expect him to be sitting around a 2-2.5% pickrate 54-56% winrate mark in an ideal situation.
That’s true, but what breakpoints does it change? Here’s a post from a well known genji main talking about the breakpoints:
The only really big change is the 3 headshot + melee, which is exceptionally difficult to pull off. Versus a target being healed for example, it’s only a 3% damage increase.
Yeah exactly that’s my point. And notice how rein zarya skyrocketed after his nerfs? It wasn’t because rein zarya were OP, (maybe rein was a tad overtuned), it was because the other tanks got nerfed. The only reason I could see rein zarya nerfs being justified is for lower ranks.
Completely agreed. 20 damage would help him so much.
This isn’t based on any objectivity or facts but rather narration to try to explain data that doesn’t support your argument. Following the same kind of logic, McCree’s low win rate is only because he’s being used by diamond players who were boosted into GM simply by playing a busted character. Obviously they aren’t good so they are going to lose a bunch. There are 8 heroes picked less than Genji over the past month & 6 months in GM, 6 of which have lower win rates. But if only one tricks who have mastered a hero play heroes with low pick rates, why so many heroes have lower win rates when they should be higher?
Of the data we have in GM:
In the past 6 months: Genji has the 7th highest win rate of all heroes, 4th highest of DPS
In the past 3 months: He’s 8th highest of all heroes, 5th highest DPS
In the past month: He’s 3rd highest of all heroes, 3rd highest DPS.
In the past week: He’s 2nd highest of all heroes, 2nd highest DPS.
When he’s being played, he’s winning quite a bit. This is a sign of power not weakness.
We have already established 1 week worth of stats is insufficient. Trying to get even less data to support a faulty narrative means even less.
If by “well known” you mean someone who spams forums daily for Genji buffs then sure. Not biased at all btw. Mind you, here is the same guy just one month earlier saying Genji is perfectly fine. Genji buffed! THANK YOU
But back to breakpoints: the thing you seemed to miss out on is the 1 shuriken less to kill. Doesn’t sound like much? If phrased another way, 1 shuriken less is a 12.5% buff, with no compensation nerfs, on a hero that already sports one of the highest win rates in the game. Lest you forgot what OP Genji looked like, who also had the same breakpoint.
Only a 3% damage increase you say? You know what the difference is between McCree shooting 3 clips with a combat roll and 1.5 vs 1.2 second reload is? 134.04 vs 138.46 DPS. You know what happened to his win rate after that change? Remember, this marginal DPS increase also does not change any breakpoints, and can only be gained after firing through many clips.
As I’m sure you know, power is relative. The game requires you pick 2 tanks. And tanks happen to work in pairs for the most part, one of which being the “main” tank. When Rein becomes the dominant main tank, Zarya’s pick rate usually follows suit. But to be fair, I recall not long ago when Piggy was the dominant tank, Zarya was also still the 2nd dominant tank to pair with him… throwing the whole “main” tank idea out the window.
On the topic of tanks, my favorite to play happens to be Wrecking Ball, who has received nothing but nerfs since his release. Justified? Or just Blizzard deciding who they want to be meta? I happen to think he was perfectly fine on his release, and have only ever been told to switch off when playing him. Ever hear anybody say “please pick ball”? I sure haven’t lol. Meanwhile, nerf after nerf after nerf later, I just don’t play him anymore. Blizzard wonders why so few players queue for tank 
It’s most likely due to people picking up meta heroes they aren’t actually good at. Mcrees a good example as we’ve mentioned many times before. A lot of people think they can play him but they actually suck at him. One tricks have more time on the hero so they’re going to do better than a player with an hour on mcree picking him up on GM.
As I said before, he’s got a historically high winrate, so his winrate is going to be skewed a little bit higher, not much, but a little, that’s because winrate works in certain heroes favour. Opposite of mcree basically. Some heroes are just genuinely historically low/high winrate heroes. Not really much you can change about that unless you rework them entirely.
Also, I think it’s a little bit concerning that they are not playing genji at the highest level of play (where any form of other stats are basically irrelevant especially pickrate) when dive is quite meta.
He’s biased, but he’s also a really reasonable forumer.
Also, I looked through the thread, I couldn’t see him saying genjis fine now unless I missed a quote, but I did find him saying
in all honesty, if they were to change genji again in the future such as another small change like:
- Shuriken damage increased from 28 to 29
- Ult Cost increased by 10% (now at 25% increased)
I’d be fine with that. For now, it’s the right direction for him and now he’ll feel better while not being oppressive.
Thank you for reminding me, I genuinely forgot about that sorry.
But yes 1 less shuriken would help a lot, but I still don’t think it’d make him OP. As I said before, it’d only really help in a 1v1 situation, any sort of healing would basically cancel this breakpoint.
Also, in June last year he had 30 dmg shurikens with 0.65 secondary recovery, and no ult charge nerf, which was much worse and had more broken breakpoints apparently.
That’s true, but that was two nerfs keep in mind.
But yeah we gotta be more careful when we’re in this state of balance, where a LOT of things are super balanced. Anything slightly too far and any hero can skyrocket.
Well, I think that mainly was due to orisa being absolute garbage at the time, zarya was just the next best thing, also hog absolutely ripped through main tanks at the time due to his dmg being overtuned. She had at the time
- 400hp
- Slower projectile speed
- Fortify wasn’t immune to crits
- Halt CD was longer.
And even now she’s not an amazing tank due to all the millions of nerfs she got before that.
Yup absolutely and that’s my point. I struggle to believe that ball needed nerfs, aside from maybe the piledriver one. And honestly even rein zarya etc. Idk, I’ve just been rarely convinced, after the massive orisa sigma nerfs, it’s most of the time been whoevers the next best tank, rather than a result of buffs. The only one who got nerfed as a result of buffs was rein. Everyone else was just the next best tank. Kinda sick of it honestly. They all feel absolutely awful to play now, even zarya who I used to love playing.
Stop peddling this freaking garbage. There’s obviously some outlier affecting his stats. He wouldn’t remain the most picked dps at all freaking ranks for months if he was only ok. The top ranks wouldn’t pick a character with a bad pickrate for MONTHS, when they consistently pick character that will win them games. I’ve almost never seen a dps’ pickrate be as busted as current mccrees. And the fact that lower ranks could easily get by on him because his kit is so damn forgiving is just disgusting.
ppl are seeing him because he IS meta.
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One nerf that was useless, a roll distance who don’t affect anything at all.
HE NEED A NERF.
I’m waiting for him to get gutted and then people start going “Yeah I guess McCree wasn’t so bad”
Double flying is a huge concern of mine if that does happen, it’s far worse because only hitscans and mirror picking will be viable, unlike with McCree where you can still use everything because it’s easy to play around him
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I will say: ‘’ finally I will have fun playing, I can play Reaper/Junkrat/Mei/Genji/Tracer/symm and have a true skill test instead of just click on a head once’’