People Play Symmetra Wrong

Yup. Your ranking is actually not indicative of a hero being good or bad. Also given that your profile is private I cant really lend any credibility to your claims of rank. So the actual playtime you have as symmetra is hidden. I have no way of verifying your conclusion as you locked it away. Once its available based on the information given we can determine if what you say comes from 20 min of comp playtime or just some trash talking for the luls.

In the end of the day the game is always evolving. And some people like you need to see her shine in pro matches to even believe it without ever being anything but a meta slave yourself

we’re talking about the same dev team that:

  • somehow thought it was a reasonable expectation to have sym get in 10m of the enemy and live there for 4s (double <=2.0 charge time) to just charge up and then longer to actually utilise lvl 3 beam (yes this was how sym3.0 was released initially)
  • somehow thought infinite tp would “make sym more flexible” despite MASSIVELY spiking up the down time of tp: her all-in-one engagement, disengagement and burst-combo-enabling tool i.e. her main tool to actively do anything meaningful as a dps
    • it doesn’t take a genius to know that changing a hero to have all of low effective range, low sustain, low mobility AND low burst is trashing the hero. it’s simply common sense
    • if they actually knew how to play sym, they wouldn’t have made this kit killing change
  • somehow thought orbs should be buffed in damage rather than either fire rate or projectile speed
    • if they actually knew what they were doing and know what sym’s issues were, they would’ve done 1 of the latter rather than leaving orbs as inconsistent (i.e. not helping their issue) while also making it feel worse on the receiving end because it worsens the spam
  • somehow thought that nerfing turrets and ult after the kit killing tp nerf and after compensating the primary bug fix in double shield meta, despite the fact that sym was already being replaced in the meta then and despite the fact that sym had been underpeforming for >1yr across various metas without the nerfs prior to double shield meta is balancing her “individual balance” (i.e. balance independent of the meta) right.

so either it’s blizz not understanding sym, or they biased against her. either way,

so let’s work through what they can possibly intend for sym:

this following point knocks out primary-centic (i.e. zarya-like) gameplay:

if they want sym to be really passive and static in only ever re-enforcing claimed area, waiting for team pockets all day for w+m1 to be able to actively contribute, then that’s inherently a bad design anyways in more ways than one:

  • going out to create and/or grab opportunities for yourself is inherently always going to be more efficient and yield higher value than the above where you’re waiting for them to come to you and you have little control over that
  • the whole game was initially really fast paced and is getting much faster with all the goats and shield killing patches to make tanks, and consequently teams, move around more
    • most game modes have moving objectives (heck even 2CP is 2 different points in serially i.e. you need to move) and we’re getting another game mode in OW2 with a moving objective
    • the point of the rework was to get sym to be more dynamic too rather than static

so that’s out. what’s left? oh right, what I was saying about being a dynamic flanking zoner.

see the receipts in the linked post quoting directly from the devs who also repeated in the reddit AMA:

and to clear something up: no I’m not saying she’s fine. she’s absolutely terrible rn. but people tunnel vision team tps and primary both in gameplay and in her discussions about improving her yet completely neglect the parts of her kit that she uses most and has more opportunities to use over the majority of the match: orbs and individual tp uses.

There was literally one clip from an actual game that I counted in that montage. Playing game modes that are not standard Overwatch isn’t a way I’d play a character to really estimate their power level, it’s unfair and has different advantages and disadvantages that are not present in a regular game. Being able to spend all your turrets on a single engagement vs. having to pace yourself because you need to maintain an area near your healers, that kind of thing.

Second, I’m not saying that her primary fire doesn’t do damage - I think it’s hilarious that you want us to be happy with her orbs and terrible laser pointer when, at best, you can use it to catch people out when they aren’t paying attention or you’re lucky and they’re prioritizing someone that they think is more important than you, thus giving you the opportunity to put a fully charged orb in them.

I think her orbs could be okay, if it weren’t for the fact that her primary fire is so terrible. I think she could be okay, if it weren’t for the fact that her reliable damage output wasn’t so stuck on her turrets. Symmetra is a If then = Yes / No character, and it’s really painful.

Do you have your turrets up? Do you have help from your team? Do you have your resources to spend, as in, your turrets/tp didn’t just get obliterated in some other engagement? Do you have time to charge up? Then you might be OK. But if one of those things isn’t happening, you’re probably going to have a bad time.

Unlike other characters who can just click and get value, it’s like trying to sell me something that’s half the value for the same cost. I’m sorry, I’m just not that stupid. No sale.

  1. to clear something up: no I’m not saying she’s fine. she’s absolutely terrible rn. but people tunnel vision team tps and primary both in gameplay and in her discussions about improving her yet completely neglect the parts of her kit that she uses most and has more opportunities to use over the majority of the match: orbs and individual tp uses.

  2. you definitely do need to pace your turrets in deathmatch esp if you’re trying and not meme camping in 1 spot all game.

  3. they’re mostly regular deathmatch, so no alterations of anyone’s kits at play to discredit the fact that the maneuver works

  4. if you want a game: this whole 1st team fight in regards to the gameplay style: When You Have To Kill Everything - YouTube and then this defense for the tp-orb combos Stevo Abuses The Backline - YouTube

Stop with the myth that orbs are a long or even mid range tool. They arent. They are only aimeable within 15m, and the rest are ineffectual healer ult charge.

Not only that but beam is hardly ever useful against anyone that isnt a fat tank.

Hammond maybe, but all it took for Ashe to took off is that people noticed that her kit is actually freaking bonkers for a sniper. She dominates at all elvels, including bronze. Its not a matter of skill at all, she is simply a poorly designed, do-it-all hero.

No, they didn’t anything about this. There was no expectation stated by Blizzard; you, however, are making this expectation for yourself.

No, they did not state this. They changed the teleporter to be able to have the option of controlled self-destruct, giving more control to Symmetra’s teleporter; this required a change to how the cooldown works.

More supposition and conjecture without factual evidence.

Ditto here, too. You clearly make these stupid mistakes all the time indicating bias that you think you know better than what Blizzard, the game’s creators, do when it comes to their designs. You are acting entitled; and it is easy to dismiss this argument.

You don’t have one bit of evidence or data-gathering to indicate what Blizzard did was wrong. This still reeks of entitlement bias.

Supposition without a basis of fact.

More supposition which concludes

false conjectures. Defense is a real element in the design of Overwatch. Keep targets out of your controlled space or objective is a benefit to you. If they can’t approach, that’s good for you. The more time spent fighting away from the objective, the less time they have to capture it.

Ignoring some of the obvious faults in map designs. Defense is oriented to stalling and delaying until the timer runs out. It’s a beneficial design element to wait it out or find ways of bring the enemy to you in the most dangerous ways possible for them. Offense has to take the risk, defense does not have to give chase or mobilize anything or anyone to hunt down enemy targets. At best, they can sit on the objective all game and stall until the enemy offense decides to move in. That’s beneficial to a number of defensive minded heroes, including Symmetra.

Irrelevant in defense; which is Symmetra’s primary design role. See above.

Irrelevant. Stay focused on here. Complain about the shortcomings on OW2 when OW2 is here.

And it did it’s job, but that doesn’t change the fact that Symmetra is largely going to be focused on defense, area and spacial control.

Emphasis mine.

You are right, Blizz didnt have any expectation of Sym working as a dps hero at all because they didnt design 3.0 was one lmao

No, it required no such change.

It was a direct nerf to personal TP while keeping team TP intact for OWL memes. There were no benefits to Sym gameplay as a dps hero at all with ITP.

The first one is true, the second one isnt.

Sym WAS trashed, but not because Blizz ‘‘doesnt know’’ how to Sym plays. She was trashed because they dont want Sym to be played as anything but as a taxibot, and they have nerfed everything but the ability to team TP your team into point. It wasnt out of ignorance, it was an intentional awful change to a hero that barely qualifies as a dps hero.

You don’t decide this.

False conjecture with no evidence.

Yes, I do, because I actually have 400 hours in Sym. You make it sound like it could have been a giant buff when it was self destructing after a few seconds already.

False conjecture that she was trashed in aspects aside the one thing that OWL uses her for? When thats literally her patch notes? Being nerfed for still being worse that Genji when he was ‘‘trash tier’’?

How about you stop commenting on Sym threads. You’ve got that fake “I pretend I’m smart” manner of typing which is extremely grating and your points are consistently wrong and bad to boot.

Reflect.

By the time you charge that beam after hitting an orb you’ll end up in spawn so I guess you have to ?

here are the receipts:

the expectation for sym to be able to do that WAS THERE.

August 13 patch notes:

Symmetra>

Teleporter

  • Now lasts an infinite duration until destroyed
  • Players can destroy their Teleporter with the ability 2 input
  • Cooldown now starts when Teleporter is destroyed
  • Maximum range increased from 25 to 30 meters
  • Teleporter is destroyed if the entrance is more than 40 meters from the exit

Developer Comment: Symmetra’s Teleporter is an interesting tool but often felt too restricting to use. Making the Teleporter last indefinitely opens up new opportunities for how Symmetra is used in various maps and group compositions.

they spiked up the down time without changing how it’s interacted with and called the blatant nerf as “less restricting” and “have more opportunities of use” when it has literally the same use cases but can’t be used as often since it’s much less available. it’d be like giving rein’s barrier a 12s cd that only starts on deactivation or destruction then saying “it’s less restrictive now and you can use it in more comps and have more opportunities to do so”.

please explain how a hero low effective range, low sustain, low mobliity and very low access to burst (whether for heal or damage) wouldn’t be trash…

when they actually had something functional (sym3.0 before infinite tp) and then they neuter the core tool that made that functional (what infinite tp did) while also claiming the literal opposite of what such a nerf entails as the goal/purpose of the change, then either they don’t know their design well or they’re just biased against it.

>turrets and wall pretty much untouched for like the ~2yrs across various meta shifts from sym3.0 release and sym was underperforming.
>1 particular meta shift props her up and suddenly they gotta nerf them despite how their unnerfed states not being an issue for all those other metas and despite how other heroes got powercrept further since then

that itself wouldn’t necessarily be an issue if the power was redistributed to say her weapon (e.g. orbs and individual use of tp) BUT IT WASN’T. it was a net nerf on a hero’s individual balance (i.e. balance independent of meta) who legit was shown empirically to underperform in their individual balance (by all those metas she was underperforming in prior).

when such blatant detrimental changes are made, those are the logical conclusions. you dismissing my logical arguments is not entitlement from me.

which defense is better:

  1. is completely static and has to wait for intruders to move into that static space before the defense can trigger to ward them off which inherently gives the intruders much free ground to have more options of attack from valuable positions? or
  2. a dynamic defense that achieves the potency of option 1 and be more fluid in where it wards off (i.e. can prevent more valuable areas from being taken and earlier too) and can even be used offensively to claim new areas?

obvs option 2. esp when teams in ow move around A LOT.

not to mention framing it in terms of defense only isn’t even very valid because half the game is attack.

:cow: :poop:
when you play widow (remember she was a defense hero), or any hitscan actually, do you just stay in 1 spot waiting for the enemy to walk into your los and effective range? or do you, yourself actually wasd and use mobility abilities to get yourself into effective range of enemies and to get good angles past enemy cover for you to contribute kills (getting opportunities to contribute; hero uptime)?

OBVS the latter. why? because you get more opportunities to actively contribute rather than camping somewhere for long periods of time where you’re not adding value. i.e. you going out to get opportunities to contribute is more efficient design than being forced to be served up opportunities. esp in an environment where teammates are chosen via rng and players are rewarded individually.

this logic applies irrespective of whether you’re on offense or defense. it applies irrespective of role.

>you: she’s supposed to be really static
>devs: here are all these game modes with non-static objectives
>devs: “so we’re going to nerf the hell out of static play by redistributing tank power from their shields to other parts of their kit to make them move around more” x2~3 to kill goats and double shield
>me: points out how devs doing that inherently makes purposely designing heroes to be that static not fit in the game (in the sense that it’ll be designing them to be bad) and goes against where the game’s heading which leaves those heroes behind
>you: “iReLevaNT”

until infinite tp.

area and spacial control sure, but not to be statically anchored down.

them talking about regrets does not mean that the 3.0 rework wasn’t meant to make her “used more commonly” because there wouldn’t be a rework in the first place if they didn’t.

and saying “it’s possible they can try reworking her as a support” is not the same as “she’s supposed to be a support”. no promises have been made. and heck, even if there was, it further adds to my point of they don’t know what they’re doing.

3 Likes

She has multiple combos like tp + turret + orb + punch.
But some people simply whine until the hero gets reworked, and then they will whine again.

If they want her in melee range most of the time, she needs some changes.

Maybe some dash move.

And get rid of TP, its a garbo cheese ability anyway. Give her another builder power.

You have anything better to do outside of that range?
You’re stuck with your tank, either the tank is close enough for you to use the beam or you’re stuck with the secondary.

Depends on the situation.
I mean, it’s true that fat tanks and deflect Genji are the only heroes that the beam is good against AT FIRST. but if you manage to charge it up to level 3 anything goes. Level 3 is absolute madness being the 3rd strongest primary fire in the game after Bastion & Reaper. 156.29 damage per second if I add reload to the calculations!!
And that without the turrets who do another +120 damage which makes her the 2nd strongest hero in term of damage when all of her abilities are at use.

Usually enemies would run the tanks infront and the dps and support behind so Symmetra’s beam can charge on big targets, if the enemies don’t react fast enough Symmetra turns into a big problem- a glass cannon.

So yeah, right now the all protective comp of her is pretty dead considering Orisa-Hog state, and how weak all the other stationary heroes not to mention her beam is pretty short, but Symmetra got amazing potential at level 3

Why play a hero that needs the teams chip damage when I can just play a hero that can rely on themselves

That’s just the counterintuitive nature of syms gun. It has bad synergy with her kit. Her tp can’t be fully utilized because her gun is short range and high charge up.

3 Likes

No way in hell

Her combat changed dramatically from 2.0 to 3.0. Her effective range was greatly increased yet all of the old utility of her gun was removed. So she can no longer pierce lock on and such.

Alongside her major gun changes her instant access combat ability was removed. Removing photon barrier changed almost every one of her matchups in this game.

Her combat has been greatly altered with every rework she received. If you think her combat didn’t change I don’t believe that you really learned the other versions of sym.

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I agree level 3 beam is quite good. The issue with Sym is that a level 1 beam and a level 3 beam have too much of a DPS gap to even be considered on the same ballpark.

That’s the main issue with balancing Symmetra numbers. Everyone assumes she will be walking around with a max beam full time, and balance her around that. So in the 90% of the time you do not have a level 3 beam in the most important moments of the fight, you are just too weak to do the job they expect you to do.

If they want Sym to fight with her beam primarily, they need to either remove the ramp-up mechanic (which was a mechanic to balance the autolock, in the first place), or tight the difference by a big margin, so that she isn’t required to hope to survive for over 2 seconds before she deal actual good damage.

I’d set level 1 beam to 120 DPS, and set level 2 at 150 DPS. Those values are on par with your average DPS values, and level 3 would be a (still sizeable) 50% damage boost, not a 200% damage boost.

Realistically speaking, you would never have a level 3 beam at the same time an enemy is being hit by three turrets. It may happens in certain situations, but most of the time? You need the enemy to move into your turrets while you are beaming them with a max level beam or close to that, which rarely happens outside of overtime.

If you need to set the turrets in reaction to them engaging you, by the time your turrets are set, either you already melted them with your ramped up beam before the turrets set, or you have to start from scratch the ramp-up and the turrets will kill them before you even reach level 3.

So no, adding turret DPS on top of max beam DPS is as much a fantasy as the 100% headshot red Widowmaker that always wreck your team.

I will say, at least sym players actually use her orb now. way back when sym 3.0 dropped veteran syms kept complaining about not being able to secure kills with her new beam, and looked completely passed her orbs. I was always ignored whenever I tried teaching them to use orbs instead

sir it does 60dps for 1.2 seconds, why go for that when you can do 120 burst damage every second. Im not a great symm, however, ive found that beam is only worth when you can find a shield or tank to charge on otherwise youre better off just going for orbs unless you have REALLY good tracking

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