Patch notes are up (arguing time!)

[Shimada-12277]

@DeLos-1943

That is just not well thought out. Win rate is a terrible measure because the things that impact it are people playing they hero that do not regularly play the hero. Because, and I don’t understand why people can’t wrap their heads around this, anyone playing the hero regularly is going to naturally go towards a 50/50 win because of the matchmaker. OP heroes just let people climb higher until the hero’s OP status no longer makes up for their lower skill. And given how often he is played, the VAST majority of people playing him are going to be regulars.

lol because you were arguing about his win rates being too high several seasons ago, so I pointed out that they are not too high right now.

And then you changed your argument to, because he’s op so people climb on him until the hero cannot carry their low skill and put them near 50% lol…

You are obviously very biased and just make up non-sensical argument to support a preconceived notion. It’s not very effective…your arguments cannot logically convince anyone except those who also have the same preconceived notion lol…

@DeLos-1943

All of the S9 changes benefit him MORE than other heroes.

Sure, but didn’t throw him out of balance. He isn’t taking over the whole game.

@DeLos-1943

I suspect the second part is the reason for the first part.

lol ok, still don’t care though, and other players playing at that level also don’t care seeing Genji more.

When it comes down to it, Genji just isn’t that frustrating to play compared to say, Sombra, Mei, Junkrat or even Sym, despite Genji being stronger.

@DeLos-1943

They are not balancing for a fun game. If they were, Genji would not be the top. As you have noted, he is more frustrating to be killed by than most heroes. If they were all about sacrificing balance for fun gameplay he would be weak.

No actually they are, they just don’t see the frustration of getting killed by Genji a game-harming problem. They did just address the kind of death most complained about - one-shot/burst damage. Whatever awful feeling you have from getting killed by Genji is not a serious, game-wide problem lol…

Most importantly, Genji is the most popular dps hero. It’s important to the health of the game to keep him fun. Note I said keep him fun, not “don’t make other heroes more fun.”

Blizzard should try to make other heroes more fun, but making fun heroes less so, would be a big L

@DeLos-1943

Mei was nerfed to the ground in OWL specifically to remove her from OWL, which they even said they were trying to do
Cassidy started getting buffs when OWL announcers started talking about watching people ‘click on heads.’
Going into OWL they specifically told us that they were keeping Ana sleep dart because it made for ‘good clips.’
When Sojourn was OP early on they were asked about the frustration playing against it and their reply was, “but it makes for good clips.”
When they mega buffed Genji they even told us it was to get him in OWL.

Etc, etc.

It is not a new thing.

I want clips so I can get the full context instead of paraphrases after a bias filter.

@DeLos-1943

Sure we do. Pick rate and performance data.

The pick rates and “performance data” don’t tell you which heroes are “OP.” That conclusion only be drawn with personal interpretation of the data.

[Mob-12311]

You can still install with a dash+fan(HS)+melee. It’s much easier to do than before due to his projectile size increase. It feels even easier to hit the full combo than it did to hit a dash+fan(HS) for a one-shot in prior seasons, and that’s one extra input. Genji has not felt this easy since the beginning of OW2.

[DeLos-1943]

@Shimada-12277

lol because you were arguing about his win rates being too high several seasons ago,

I was not. I have never used win rate as THE measure of power. When pick rate is high AND win rate is high the high win rate is not the thing that tells you he is imbalanced. But it does remove all other potential causes for the high pick rate.

Win rate is terrible to use as a measure of hero power. But it can help identify and/or eliminate causes of a hero over performing.

@Shimada-12277

Sure, but didn’t throw him out of balance. He isn’t taking over the whole game.

Yes he is. He has been for some time. It is currently him and Soldier at the top. They were at the top before. And they are among the highest benefitted from the changes.

@Shimada-12277

When it comes down to it, Genji just isn’t that frustrating to play…

That just isn’t true. You even said he was frustrating to be killed by.

And there are just as many people that complain about him as other heroes. At all ranks.

@Shimada-12277

compared to say, Sombra, Mei, Junkrat or even Sym

Basically nobody at high levels complains about Junkrat as he is hardly there. Even less so after S9 patch. Same for Sym. Very few complain about Mei. Really the only people I ever see complaining about Mei or Sym are Genji’s who haven’t figured out how to play without the deflect crutch.

And, sure Sombra gets some complaints, but I see far less of them than Genji. Probably because he is stronger & more played (the second is because of the first).

@Shimada-12277

No actually they are, they just don’t see the frustration of getting killed by Genji a game-harming problem.

That is not true.

Let’s step back a second and make this really simple.

You admit Genji is OP and has been for a very long time. You just don’t think it matters. I suspect that has more to do with you liking the extra boost he gives you. But regardless of the reason, that is where you are coming down.

You and I are fundamentally not going to agree on that. I believe NO hero should be significantly OP. While perfect balance is impossible, the hero(s) on the top should change regularly. I believe this because it adds more variety to the game. It keeps it changing. There is a reason people always want them to shake up the meta. The same games over and over tire people out and they play less, or even just quit playing. The game is healthier if the top heroes change.

[Shimada-12277]

@DeLos-1943

I was not. I have never used win rate as THE measure of power. When pick rate is high AND win rate is high the high win rate is not the thing that tells you he is imbalanced. But it does remove all other potential causes for the high pick rate.

Win rate is terrible to use as a measure of hero power. But it can help identify and/or eliminate causes of a hero over performing.

Well you weren’t using anything, you just…declared Genji is op lol…

@DeLos-1943

Yes he is. He has been for some time. It is currently him and Soldier at the top. They were at the top before. And they are among the highest benefitted from the changes.

Being at the top doesn’t mean much. Blizzard doesn’t balance only around pick rates.

The hotfix reduced projectile size of many heroes not “at the top.”

@DeLos-1943

That just isn’t true. You even said he was frustrating to be killed by.

And there are just as many people that complain about him as other heroes. At all ranks.

Yep I did. I also said it’s not a big problem. It’s more like it’s at the edge of being tolerable lol…past that, it becomes game harming. e.g. one-shots, hack, CC, perma flight, etc. And they get nerfed.

Compared to those, Genji just isn’t that frustrating to play against.

@DeLos-1943

Basically nobody at high levels complains about Junkrat as he is hardly there. Even less so after S9 patch. Same for Sym. Very few complain about Mei. Really the only people I ever see complaining about Mei or Sym are Genji’s who haven’t figured out how to play without the deflect crutch.

Because they got nerfed…because they got a lot more complaints when they are top heroes…because they have more frustrating mechanic or playstyle than Genji lol…

You don’t see much Mei or Sym complaints now because their unfun mechanics have been nerfed or removed. Sym is in the trash can now but every time a tank gets walled by a Mei, that “eff this bs, I’m out” meter slowly builds. It builds every time a tank gets walled, hacked, CC’d.

Genji…like the only thing that had any consistent complaint was nanoblade, and it’s been indirectly nerfed too.

@DeLos-1943

That is not true.

Let’s step back a second and make this really simple.

You admit Genji is OP and has been for a very long time. You just don’t think it matters. I suspect that has more to do with you liking the extra boost he gives you. But regardless of the reason, that is where you are coming down.

You and I are fundamentally not going to agree on that. I believe NO hero should be significantly OP. While perfect balance is impossible, the hero(s) on the top should change regularly. I believe this because it adds more variety to the game. It keeps it changing. There is a reason people always want them to shake up the meta. The same games over and over tire people out and they play less, or even just quit playing. The game is healthier if the top heroes change.

Ummm no, I did not “admit” Genji is op lol…

What I said was it’s not a problem that a hero stay at the top and for a long time, and Genji just happens to be there.

I’ll add that it’s especially not a problem when it’s heroes like Genji or Tracer or Echo are the top dps (maybe tanks will disagree with echo…). Can’t think other dps being at the top and not also be a sign that the game is in a bad state.

This better explains why top players have no problem with Genji rather than something like “oh they just accept Genji being op as a game feature, no reason to talk about it”. There are actually many dps heroes they don’t wait to complain if they become meta (as I said above)

You know, Blizzard hasn’t nerfed Genji in the last major patch and the hotfix, likely because 1) people are fine with him and 2) their data, which is far more comprehensive than what you can get from Overbuff, doesn’t suggest he needs changes. That’s what I think.

And I also think people who say “data” (from overbuff) shows he’s op are just biased…you practically dismissed everyone’s opinion and think you and overbuff have the only truth lol…