It’s remarkable that for all your participation in this topic here and on reddit, where you’re keeping a count I’m not, you still don’t get fundamental things.
Ana’s reworked ult is pretty neat and is in the theme of her challenge level. The damage reduction is 50%, not 30%, but I did overlook the initial heal. Obviously this can be readjusted and I’ll probably edit something in.
Like how you haven’t realized the problem is in the roles you’ve made, not the crappy balance ideas?
Also, “pretty neat”? You have to ask everyone to line up and get their nano shots to press Q and be pretty much invincible, or waste value if you miss a nano shot. And it’s still a massive, long-range AoE buff as the ult for a healer that is otherwise all about the single-target output. At least Reaper will get six shots of a bit more damage than the others during that time.
So we’re going to go over this one by one, expect a long post, there’s a lot of issues here.
Here’s issue one. Understand that Blizzard does not view any tank in this game now and in the future as “main tank”. All tanks perform the same exact role, how they go about it, is unique to them, but all tanks are “main tanks” and you need to understand this principle before going making blindsided comments and changes like these. Until you do. You’re forever, destroying your own arguments when do not adapt to basic fundamental logic behind the Tank role.
Effectively, this is an additional 100 health.
So he now moves as fast as Genji, and Tracer.
Rocket Hammer already has a cleave effect and enhanced range greater than the basic 5-6 meter range, and with the increased movement speed you’re going to make it even harder to escape Reinhardt’s melee range, when it’s already difficult to do so.
The already dominant and premiere tank becomes an even greater must-pick. You’re making these changes in a vacuum, even if you’re already putting him as the only tank on the team.
Why? He already has the largest barrier than clips through most chokes in the game, he doesn’t need more coverage.
Again, why? 100 damage Fire Strike is already the most powerful cooldown ability in the game. Not even Ashe’s dynamite or Genji’s Swiftstrike comes close to the coverage and damage potential firestrike does and you’re making the Tank even stronger with this.
When combined with additional effects like Fortify, Orisa already has about an effective health of 600 HP, with this addition 50 armor, you’re giving her 700 effective HP. Making even easier to keep her alive for any Support, and wll continue to favor them over any other hero in the game.
All of these changes are functionally bad, and really doesn’t understand the basics behind why Orisa’s weapon, movement speed, and projectile power are so important to her. Largely, it’s designed to create pressure and open space for the rest of the team. By reducing these numbers, you’re basically weakening Orisa’s most important ability as a tank - to create space.
So basically, creating the same situation that existed before where Orisa could rotate Fortify and Barrier at will and basically remain invincible. There’s a reason why these reductions happened, even if she is going to be the sole tank on the team, you don’t make tanks unkillable or take a full team’s effort to kill.
Basically you’re setting up a .2 second window where Orisa can get this right, so if you’re latency is greater than 80ms, you’re basically screwed every time.
Hm, do I want hero with 600 health? Or would a prefer a hero with 800 like Reinhardt or 700 like Orisa? Once again showing no understanding of the tweaks being made here.
Who cares. Orisa can deploy a fresh 1000 barrier in less time than it takes for Sigma’s barrier to recharge with the same immunities. Plus and extra 100 effective health, and Fortify.
From 70 back to 90. Pointless, Reinhardt’s better in all cases.
Another pointless change, Gravitic Flux takes too longer to charge as a sole tank, and Reinhardt AND Orisa are both better every shape, way and power imaginable.
So 450 health, and 100 armor. Puts him just under Sigma.
Apparently you don’t do math very well. If Winston’s is the sole tank on the team, the only other case where a four second stun would be relevant would be against targets with greater than 240 health. That basically leaves other Tanks. Since optimal Winston play includes utilizing Jump Pack damage, there’s is no case where Tesla Cannon’s stun will be effective in most situations.
There was a reason why Winston’s barrier was push up to 12 seconds. This change, hilariously, means that his barrier cooldown is now shorter than the maximum duration of his barrier. Even if he is the sole tank on the team, you don’t want players shooting the barrier forever, and since Winston can easily enter Primal Rage and regenerate his health and exit Primal Rage with cooldowns recovered, this means he always have his barrier available. Another immortal tank.
Like Tanks before, there is no such thing as an “off-support” in Blizzard’s eyes. Never has there ever been a case, or will be a case where they intentionally design a hero around being an “off-support”.
So I’m noticing a pattern here. All Supports and all Tanks will have increased health, while the class that’s largely struggling for relevancy remains largely at 200 health.
Highly evasive, highly mobile Mercy gets a base health increase to 250 HP, a constant 10 HP recovery on top of a 20 health recovery when not taking damage. Another immortal.
So heroes that deal damage less than Soldier with accuracies of less than 40% will never be able to damage a hero being healed by Mercy. Tanks will be unstoppable - Reinhardt especially.
30 meters is quite the distance coverage, but hey, let’s make even greater than the distance Tracer can cover with all three charges of Blink. Or 2.5 times the distance of Genji’s Swiftstrike, or twice the distance of Doomfist’s Rocket Punch.
So a maximum healing potential of 4,500 to 6000 across 5 targets for 8 seconds. At 150 HP/s, unless you’re Bastion in Sentry Mode, or Soldier with 100% accuracy, you won’t ever be able to damage through that healing potency for the next 8 seconds.
Yep. Definitely giving the top-end Supports even more perks.
Better healing than Moira.
Even a 50% reduction in healing against Mercy’s Valkyrie form is 75 healing per second per target. Only the highest end damage dealers will be able to cut through that much healing and only if they’re headshotting and have 100% accuracy.
What’s more powerful than Nanoboost on a Tank? 3 Nanoboosts.
Yeah, just give every Support 50 extra health while denying the damage crew any bulk against the new tanks.
Why? The healing increase from the orb of harmony isn’t high enough to justify this damage reduction.
Covering over half the capture points with healing spray.
Winning every single duel within the damage group who doesn’t have more than… 60% accuracy on Moira.
Evidently, you’re clearly don’t understand how Fade works. It’s not about distance coverage, it’s about movement in a limited duration. To increase to 2.5 seconds and still cover 40 meters, Moira would need to move at least 18 meters per second, or 300% movement speed buff.
She already moves at this speed.
Smallest target in the game gets a boost in health.
Good luck killing anything with less than 28% accuracy.
Unecessary complexities are unecessary.
If you’re going to give every Support a secondary weapon, you need to come up with both a primary fire that’s different from the main weapon and optional secondary fire. Since you want to give every Support a third ability tied to a secondary weapon, but won’t bother coming up with a primary weapon fire for the secondary weapon. You need get rid of an ability to fit in the second weapon’s effect to the alternative fire. Since every Support comes fixed with an alternative fire, you need to be ready to get rid of some abilities to fit additional ones in there, and Supports are already heavily loaded as is.
Cause we need to make Bastion weaker.
It’s already capable of critical hits, it was never taken away.
Tank shots are hit scan. And the knockback isn’t going to affect the Tanks since they’ll have their barriers up 100% of the time, or in the case of Reinhardt and Orisa, Steadfast and Fortify to prevent the knockback. Remember these are you balance changes.
So a lot bad work here. 1% of 550 from Reinhardt is 5.5 damage, with armor this reduces to 2.75 damage, multiplied by 10 is 27.5 damage towards Reinhardt. Plus the 75 per shot damage is 102.5 damage per shot. You’re effectively reducing Torbjorn’s current damage maximum of 105 per shot, by 3 and half points just so you could fit in this unique mechanic that is ultimately worse for Torbjorn in every shape imaginable. Torbjorn doesn’t use his RMB on anything but wide-targets like Tanks, and you’re just making it worse here.
Unnecessarily complexities are unnecessary.
Unnecessary complexities are unnecessary.
Unnecessary complexities are unnecessary.
Unnecessar— you know what? Where does this third ability go? What button?
1.8 to 6 damage is Tracer’s damage range.
So she’s basically a better Tracer thanks to her inherently lower spread. What turns off Gun Akimbo? Going back into stealth? Why not just permanently add the second machine gun?
Or better yet, just increase her max damage from 2 to 8, to 6 to 12? Tracer’s damage.
Unnecessary complexities are unnecessary.
Already takes longer than that.
Alternatively, you could just say Tactical Visor increases damage by 50%.
Unnecessary complexities are unnecessary.
You’re basically turning Tanks into gods with all these changes, overly favoring Supports with added bulk and more complexity, and hurting Damage output for sustain heroes with increased healing further putting pressure and demand for burst damage.
There’s a reason why GOATS happened, it wasn’t because of Damage, but because Tanks and Supports are just that strong. You need to understand that.
Ana is a high skill hero, which is something many people enjoy and find attractive. Maybe she isn’t for you, which is partly why I’ve included Mercy as the only support that will constantly be a main for the foreseeable future. Every main support is supposed to fit the role. Therefore Ana needed a reworked ultimate. I’ve made this role because I find it important to have a 2-3-1 and even a 3-2-1 composition as opposed to rigidly consign off tanks to less playtime. I’m not converting off tanks to damage.
I’ve made a couple of changes to Ana and Zenyatta in the latest edit.
Issue one is that you started typing without thinking why this thread was made. I will probably go over your post point by point too but at the moment I don’t have the time.
Goodness gracious. You know what, let’s have Jeff Kaplan himself contradict you:
Looking over the rest of your post I’ll clearly have to spell out a lot of things for you, which if necessary I don’t mind too much except for that tone of yours, which I don’t mind too much either ultimately.
They wouldn’t be trying to make Roadhog into a “main tank” or a DPS if “all tanks perform the exact same role”. Don’t try to split hairs when you’re clearly wrong. You also wrote this gem:
Jeff Kaplan is making a clear distinction between “off tanks” and “main tanks”. He clearly recognizes there are a number of tanks that cannot be played solo as they are off tanks and they either need to made main tanks or DPS.
Time to go over the rest of the stuff, although I’m just going to skip some of it.
So it seems like you didn’t read the first sections, jumped to the lists of changes, and are just posting the first thing that comes into your head as you’re progressing through the post. All designated main tanks are being buffed to be adequate and feel better played solo. Reinhardt is among them. The intention is to have them be of similar power levels so that players have options.
Protection against Sombra. He is most vulnerable.
This is a change for fun’s sake, with a slight increase in the cooldown. The ability is already annoying and potentially lethal but it’s not really a game changer. As most of what Reinhardt does is hold up a shield I wanted to spice up the one ability that he aims and deals damage with.
So Orisa is strong in competition with Reinhardt who is “already the dominant and premier tank”. This is my intention.
Orisa’s substantial movement speed penalty hinders the use of her weapon. Minimizing that penalty should not only lead to her shooting more but make her feel better to play too. However, she actually deals a lot of damage. I decided to nerf her damage output while making her reload time less obnoxious. I’m not sure why you needed to inform me that her weapon is meant to create pressure and open up space for the rest of the team. No kidding. Her weapon is for shooting. Her most important ability as an anchor shield tank is to be durable and protect her team.
The reductions happened because the game moved to a forced 2-2-2 and barrier stacking became a stifling factor. In compositions with only one tank where tank players feel aggrieved I consider it a good thing that the DPS being favored should be going for their counterparts on the other team or the double support. That or it should take an intensive effort to kill the tank. On the other hand the 2-2-2 dynamics will change, but at least double shield will not be an aggravating factor. Maybe Mercy’s damage boost, offensive use of supports, and other heroes come into the mix.
It’s a guessing game against the Reinhardt.
I don’t think you understand how armor works. It doubles to 100 health only if you’re dealing damage with many individually low damage instances of it - Tracer, Reaper without his Weapon 2 you’ll later misunderstand, Sombra, these sorts of weapons. While Soldier:76 is affected more than McCree, for instance, both are much less impeded by armor. Sigma is currently only at 350 HP presumably for a reason. Let’s see how he plays at 500 HP. His Kinetic Grasp is a better defensive ability than Orisa’s Fortify.
Aside from the already mentioned misconceptions, it’s a 50% stronger barrier. I think it’s wise to see how it would play out first. Things can be adjusted.
Everyone who has considerable experience on Sigma would likely strongly disagree. I won’t bother commenting on your other pointless responses.
Obviously you were wrong about off tanks and main tanks. In the interest of balance I have created main supports.
Is this the class with the by far longest queues and likely to be played at the allowed maximum of heroes representing it? Quite the pattern you’re noticing.
Not immortal but hard to kill, as intended. It’s how you get that third DPS.
This is likely false and there is such a thing as focus fire.
Or one third more than is currently the case.
It’s this thing called an ultimate, similar to Moira’s and worse than Zenyatta’s. A Soldier with 100% accuracy, for instance, is called Tactical Visor.
Not like it isn’t a basic premise of the entire thread. Tell me, what exactly do you think you’re responding to? Did you read the first part of the post?
Make that 6 Nano Boosts, each with a 10% damage buff rather than a 50% one.
There’s a section called GOATS Busters. The so-called new tanks are limited to one per team.
An extra 50 healing per second as opposed to 30 healing per second. Arguably I didn’t nerf the damage enough.
You’re not supposed to be dueling her easily. I also think you’re pulling these numbers out of your a.s.s.
So that he deals less damage.
You obviously misunderstand the intent. I’m not a kid like you who’s looking to fill out a test. I think you’re also conflating the primary fire and secondary fire of Weapon 1 with the Weapon 2 slot.
As usual you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re applying armor in one case but not the other. The damage against a Reinhardt under the same assumptions comes out to 130 vs 105.
Amusing. What this means is that if you can’t damage the turret it’s going to be hurting you substantially more.
Junkrat hurts significantly more when he’s at close range.
Weapon 2. Rename it if necessary.
Funny how I heard she’d be a worse Tracer. You don’t add the damage permanently because she’d come out of Stealth and murder. You tie the damage to opponents being able to see you.
I.e. not annihilating Lucio’s ult and personal shields.
Would make it less exciting and would deal more damage.
Armor, for instance.
Three damage heroes per composition, buffed “spam” heroes to counter GOATS in particular.
The two go hand in hand along with the compositions, namely the preference for and maximization of damage heroes.
Three DPS compositions or soloing a role feels bad or “unacceptable” due to balance. These changes redress that. You wouldn’t know the first thing about balance if the first thing thats pops into your mind is that something is impossible to balance. You may very well not even be able to conceptualize balance. If anything 2-2-2 under these changes concerns me the most, but it’s patently obvious allowing three DPS per team aligns with player preferences much better.
By making tanks unstoppable behemoths and healers much more durable with minor weaknesses, if any. Because that’s balance?
I check for possible issues. It’s not my fault that most of your ideas are very, very easy to find issues with.
Take a look at yourself and think for a bit.
And you end up with three DPS struggling to break Orisa’s barrier at all. 2-2-2 would be insane because some of the tank buffs you suggest would allow them to replace two normal tanks with barely any issues. Same with healers. It’s not just that they can do their role alone, it’s that they can easily fulfill all of their goals against an enemy team with an extra player.
No, he’s making heroes OP so that you can solo as the role (but adding extra restrictions to prevent people from using too many OP heroes), but also reworking them into different heroes, but also giving out abilities with special mechanics to strengthen heroes against their predicted counters and an imagined GOATS meta. Also, change for the sake of change.
This thing is still a mess despite several iterations. Mostly because of the 1-1-1 with limits of 3, plus OP tanks and healers dividing the role and making 3 supports barely even possible because of only two not being OP.
You’re aware of MOBAs, right? I don’t believe these heroes will become carries although they may have a lot of impact but a difference between power levels is not irreconcilable with balance. Except here you’re bolstering the fun of less popular roles instead of making your most popular role languish in queues.
As far as main tanks being made into unstoppable behemoths:
One, it’s clear people, including yourself, aren’t even in the same ballpark as one another. This indicates a major lack of understanding and a tendency for exaggeration and even hyperbole.
Two, if Orisa becomes too problematic in the way you describe you tone down her barrier to 900 points for instance. The lower cooldown stays. The only aspect of 2-2-2 I’m concerned about is a mirror. I think you’re underestimating the effect of triple DPS.
I have about as much clue of what you just wrote as you have of what you’re responding to.
I’m glad you’re catching onto some things. As far as this quote is concerned, the tank role is already more severely divided. For the most part historically you get Reinhardt or dive. Players showed little tolerance for double shield so good luck buffing Orisa and Sigma, and good luck nerfing Reinhardt’s shield. What is being done here is making Orisa and Sigma competitive with Reinhardt while preventing double shield. This actually improves variety. The five supports listed are a total pool, as I have mentioned several times now. Three at a time are to be active, which means there can be a rotation.
No? Its what I think will happen based on my previous one tank experience.
I’d play Rein, the enemy would play a tank to match Rein (it wasn’t always a Rein V Rien mirror match), and each team would see which tank would die first so the other tank could gain ground.
I had a lot of fun doing that, a LOT of fun, but its clear that’s not what the players wanted. That’s fair enough; I know I’M not the only one playing Overwatch, so I’ll tolerate changes that I don’t really like.
However, a mandatory ONE tank could easily bring those days back. If no one liked it back then, why would people like it now with a single tank that has to be powered up?
In my many hours of Overwatch prior to 2-2-2 role queue as a DPS player I never attached such importance to a single tank. I think very few people had an issue with lone tank players having too much fun or importance, lol! Everyone is claiming the opposite was the issue.
Really? I’m not saying you’re lying at all, I’m just surprised to read that. Everything pre 2,2,2 was “4 DPS, 1 tank, 1 support”, for a lot of people. At least, in Quick Play it was.
I guess if you only play Comp, where they did 2,2,2 anyway, I can understand how you never had to be the only tank or see one tank. All I know is that I exclusively played Tank on the PS4 back then, only because I loved Rein and Hog, so practically every match was as I described unless I felt like playing someone different.