"OW2 less strategic and deathmatchy"

General Discussion
202

If they reduce the amount of hard counters in this game, the game should become more tactical/strategic at least in the form of aggression.

We would also need to define “strategy” too. Is it from a perspective of a single player trying to win the game, or as a team? Because as a team, I think the complexity in strategy was decreased a bit which isn’t surprising since there’s one less player in both teams now.

But in the strategy context of a single player, that should have risen much higher in OW2. Especially for tanks and DPS role, since damage seems to be bringing the most value now in the second iteration of the game. And yes, dealing damage requires strategy too, because you need to strategise how to deal damage since every hero deals damage differently, and you also need to know which enemy to prioritise on, as well as figure out when to initiate the attack or flank.

For this reason, game should technically provide more opportunity for tanks to pop off as long as they don’t make the role too dependent on constant healing because of too high of a damage. But they still need to work on reducing OP synergies some heroes as well as team comps can have especially at higher level of coordination.

Since ultimates are still way too strong in this game and basically has no counter most of the time. But to be fair, there’s no more 2CP now. So getting a team-wipe with ultimates will provide less value now on newer maps like Push.

Anyways, the reason why CC was both increasing and decreasing strategy in OW1 was because it provides an option to deal with the problem. But it can also make the enemy unable to outplay you if the CC/ability/ultimate synergy is too strong.

I think OW2 in a way tries to address this at least from the CC side of things. Maybe they might still need to look into ana’s kits though as well as powerful ultimates every hero has. But aside from that, OW2 should have became more strategic than OW1 at least from a single player’s perspective. As a team, the game may or may not have become less strategic. So we gain some, and we lose some.

With the DPS role in particular for OW2, the game is already significantly more strategic than OW1 for them. So I don’t think too much changes are needed to improve the qualit of that role.

Support, I think needs way more work. Since support’s strategy in playmaking has to mostly come from healing and using utilities. Since unlike tanks or DPS, their damage is more limited even though damage is so far bring the most value in strategy.

203

False, as already pointed above.

You are literally using an exception. Q3 1v1 or TDM was ALL about zone/map/item control and using cover, then hearing the enemy and pre-firing on corners to get advantage. In fact, the more the enemy caught you in the open, the more likely you were to die.

Being behind shields and 2 dudes with absorption skills, 2x+ your health and getting ultrapocketed while shooting the enemy is not an FPS thing really. It is possible in OW1 sure, but its not something that relates to an FPS more than natural cover.
Not in a million years.

1 Like
204

I‘d love to face you. „Zoning“ is something completlly different. A Zen „hiding“ behind a car is not Zoning and he won‘t be able to run away or control neither the map nor a single heal pack. „Hiding“ is what „Campers“ do in CS; you can shot you teammates in the head in CS too but it probably isn‘t a core system of the game. Of cause there is cover in arena shooters but i didn‘t quote „cover is a system“ i quoted „hiding behind cover beeing a core system“.

205

Because it is? What FPS game has ever allowed you to just trundle down mid in plain sight? Ultramobility like rjump/skipjump physics abuse became a thing because you needed a way to cross clear terrain without being exploded by anyone with two brain cells.

1 Like
206

Funny how some people claim that Ow2 is better, more complex and more strategic and rich and try convince people by elaborated crazy diagrams and theories…

Reallity in pvp games: Deathmach steamroooooll, weeeeeeee!

And not just because is what you found the 90% of the time, on forums were enumerated a lot of times all the changes and fails that came with ow2. While the arguments defending ow2 to death usually are: “adapt to the changes… I find more funny more pewpew… Supports players crybabies!.. Hitscan dps now feel awesome so the game is better…”

5 Likes
207

lol so you are saying bunnyhopping, strafejumping, circlejumps and overbounces weren‘t simple physics bugs? And ID planed RJ and Plasmaclimbes to be a thing? I cant even
Yes, i‘ll probably rail you while moving across a mile wide plan and you hiding behind cover

208

I’m inclined to agree with your points. I think right now, the sustain is way too low for there to be any level of strategy even for tank or DPS. There’s certainly more pop off potential for those two roles though. But it’s not exactly the same thing as strategy and how one should decide to approach the enemy and coordinate with their team.

I think the loss of second tank has got a lot to do with this. Since a lot of the strategy was from taking advantage of the space provided by your tanks, synergising your ultimates with them etc.

The loss of 2CP is in my opinion another big factor. But it’s not like we can bring back 2CP in OW2 since I doubt it would work with one tank.

1 Like
209

All the OG idtech (and by extension, goldsrc) physics bugs are unintentional, but because players figured out how to abuse them, they started becoming standard features in the genre.

The problem is that on forums, the feedback is to the tune of “support feels bad because healing doesn’t invalidate one or two DPS worth of output anymore”, or “support feels bad because I, personally, can’t handle flankers”. The scenarios chosen are usually some super cherry picked argument where OP was either extremely unlucky and would have lost anyway, or some bizarre edge case that almost never happens in real games–complaining about lack of peel as a metal rank support is wild because you weren’t getting that in OW1, either.

The feedback forums give is largely hyper biased, and on these forums it’s largely support mains who want to play some kind of MMO PVP where supports can just make someone immortal and flankers get nerfed into the ground. Quite literally “buff my main, nerf my counters”.

1 Like
210

Do you agree theres a difference?

211

I’m not sure what you’re asking? Ultramobility evolved because not taking cover is a death sentence, and it was made possible because the physics engine could be broken in lots of ways (as you noted in your own posts).

If you’re trying to argue that you don’t need cover if you have mobility, yes, that’s true, but if you don’t have mobility you need cover. You don’t always spawn with the rocket launcher.

2 Likes
212

all those exploits were used to outplay ppl hiding behind cover, to have better zoning, to have better map control. Not to „hide“ behind cover more efficently or to RJ strait out of cover into your opponents crosshair.
Ill stop here anyways. Have a good day.

See my first post for what i actually argued.
I guess you basically agreed.

213

wait how isn’t OW2 “playing peek a boo”? :thinking:

5 Likes
214

I agree with those who say that “OW2 is less strategic and more deathmatchy” but I don’t think it’s a problem.

Too much team-reliance and the need for team strategy may work well in OWL with teams of pro players who train together. However, in a casual environment with teams of random players it always boils down to chaos or a few well known, boring and rigid methods to be able to do at least a minimal amount of teamwork with a bunch of people you just met a couple minutes ago for the first time in your life.

215

I haven’t seen a really solid explanation from somebody who claims we’ve lost strategy as to what was lost and I’ve just gone through the whole thread. I’ve seen some great explanations of things that have changed but that’s not the same thing.

My own experience with ow2 saw a growth of strategy as there always seemed to be more viable options and approaches than what I was accustomed to. That may be attributed to how new a lot of things were though.

As a tank, I didn’t experience many games that resemble some of complaints I see but when I did I always felt like it wasn’t about their being a lack of strategy in the game but a lack of strategy coming from the players. Push was probably the most guilty of this. I personally found that when I was able to get control of my team in comms, we were able to win push games off the back of map control, timing, positioning and knowing when to give up space. The same elements that make up core strategies in ow1. Granted, its difficult right now to convince your team that giving up the bot in certain places is better than staying glued to it.

My take away from my time in beta is that there’s still a lot to learn about strategy. There’s a lot the tanks have to learn about when to engage forward and when to peel back. I also think that in ow1 the vast majority of players only understood basic brawl and static bunkers where in ow2, dive strategies (both offensive and defensive) must become more prevalent down the ladder and those players just have little idea on how that works. That is a strategical expansion for most players though.

My time on support started rough but by the end of beta I was convinced supports are op or at least very strong. A backline working in tandem (especially with like an Ashe or some other long range hero with peel) is probably better at holding space than a tank is. It takes a full dive to dislodge a support duo working together and most of the ladder just doesn’t see that a lot. Granted most of the ladder has never really worked together towards a cohesive strategy anyways.

As DPS, I definitely felt like there’s a lot more DPS duels around the map and I like that, I think it’s good for DPS to have that. Going after supports in ow2 though was considerably more difficult. At least when the supports were working together. They heal more, they generally have better mobility or self peel and most flankers were nerfed. Granted if a support is playing alone or isolated they’re often food but you can’t explain to me how that shouldn’t be the case and discuss strategy in the same breathe.

Can you run around the map in a deathmatch style and carry games? Sure if the other team is trying to do the same thing but I found that employing similar strats as you’d see in ow1 shut that down pretty quick. You just might have different roles do the job of the ow1 off tank and since you aren’t up against 2 tanks, this works just fine.

This goes back to what I saw in my games. When a team employed a cohesive strategy it was fun, fast and fluid. It took coordination and discipline to play that way, I’d argue moreso than in ow1 where it was easier to avoid punishment. There was a lot of people though who didn’t try and employ any strategy outside of objective pressure and since that was probably the most overused strategy in ow1 that makes sense. In ow2 though that strategy has been nerfed somewhat in favour of map control strats that most people never bothered with because in ow1 all your really needed were 1 or 2 static approaches to the game even in high rank games and since it’s harder to control the entire map it’s takes some strategical thinking as to what parts of the map you are going to prioritize.

I like the 5v5 approach after some time with it and I wonder if sometimes we’re really talking about the decline of strategy or complaining about the style of strategies that have become more effective. Proper dive and proper poke were always most effective in power but now they are vital to understand because the difficulty curve of shutting them down has gone up for a disorganized lobby to be more equal to the difficulty of employing it offensively for a disorganized lobby.

So after a too long post about my thoughts, I’ve personally concluded that strategy hasn’t decreased at all. Its increased substantially but most of us haven’t figured it all out yet and it would be unreasonable to assume we had after only a few weeks. Thank you to anyone who actually read that essay lol.

1 Like
216

It took a long time to get to this part, but you’re right. OW2 is very strategy dependent and your strategy depends on what your team tactics look like.

You can look at the rise and fall of the Dallas Fuel as an example of what happens when you have very good tactics (everyone is individually very good at their heroes), but a poor strategy (you can’t play Zarya/Reaper in every situation and hope for the best).

Also, most people are complaining about the “death” of strategy because they always do. Every time the game becomes more competitive and less of a clownshoe, there’s a big wave of “they’re removing strategy” complaints that have no basis in reality.

  • Removed planet of the apes/hero stacking → “LESS STRATEGY”
  • Removed tank stacking (role queue) → “LESS STRATEGY”
  • Removed broken tank synergies → “LESS STRATEGY”

Who knew that removing crutch/meme game design elements made the game less strategic? Certainly not me.

2 Likes
217

Then why is the support role not reworked for this “deathmatchy” style?

DPS are deathmatch-ready by design.
Tanks are reworked accordingly to exist on the battlefield an be hard to beat in 1v1.
Supports are as team-reliant as they ever were.

2 Likes
218

Supports are more than capable of handling DM environments. You don’t play smaller team formats the same way (or as passively) as 6v6.

1 Like
219

IMO an OW2 team is basically 3dps+2support. That’s what it feels like. Teamwork is still possible and sometimes needed (e.g.: peeling for supports) but the simpler team structure is easier to understand and play.

I play mostly Ana and Mercy and didn’t feel more stressed in OW2 than in OW1. I can win duels against flankers and someone (e.g.: the other support) is often there to help.

Opinions like this may depend on rank too (I’m plat). How would you change the support role in OW2?

220

fair enough. I just like using the map and traditional fps tactics more than what OW1 has kinda become over time. If you like OW1 more then that’s fine.

221

Well,yes, it’s better, because now superior damage dealer would have much easier time eliminating any opposition. At least, better for said damage dealer - for everyone else it would be hide and seek, where being found = death.